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Old May 16 2013, 03:29 PM   #931
intrinsical
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Re: Green Arrow (CW)

Its a good finale. A couple of my predictions came true, but there were surprises too. I knew Tommy would not turn evil but I never anticipated his death. I didn't anticipate that second device either.

The writers also did a good job of setting up the next season with the fallout of the second device creating a vacuum for villains to swoop in and take over, Roy's growth and I wonder what Laurel's role will be.
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Old May 16 2013, 05:15 PM   #932
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Re: Green Arrow (CW)

Caliburn24 wrote: View Post
Moira was another one on the chopping block, with the Undertaking plot over, her character really has nothing to do except be a normal mother now. Presumably she'll be reduced to a recurring role next season, or maybe just one or two appearances in the whole season.
I hope not, they have to keep her, Susannah Thompson is too good to let go. They'll find something for her to do, she's not a normal mother, she's Moira Queen and now probably hated by most of the city, she has to redeem herself somehow.

The current main character they should get rid off is Laurel, she's this show's Lana and they found their Chloe with Felicity, they should dump the dead weight.
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Old May 16 2013, 05:28 PM   #933
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Re: Green Arrow (CW)

I am guessing Moira's trial will last most of next season. Gives a plot line for both Laurel and Moira to work on.
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Old May 16 2013, 06:00 PM   #934
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Re: Green Arrow (CW)

That was awesome! Very movie-esque.
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Old May 16 2013, 06:02 PM   #935
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Re: Green Arrow (CW)

Takeru wrote: View Post
Moira isn't dead, thank god.
I both expected and didn't expect it.

The character is too good, but the death of Ollie's parents is almost as defining as Bruce Wayne's parents dieing.

I think this was an interesting twist to redefine the character. Now these events will also weigh on Ollie.

Guy Gardener wrote: View Post
Who noticed the episode title?

"Sacrifice".

Is there an echo in here?
Yea, I have to admit, the episode title had me expecting everyone had a chance to die. Heck, for a second, I even thought Ollie might die and they might do something strange like fast forward and have Thea become Green arrow or Diggle become Green Arrow (though I will say that was only for a moment and only be wondering to what extremes they might take it).

I made for compelling viewing because it was hard to gauge who would actually die. Almost the entire main cast could have died, in theory.

Donald Draper wrote: View Post
I did not expect the second device either. I am glad part of Malcolm's plot succeeded. It means everything that happened this season will have an effect on the whole run of the show. This whole series has been around the Undertaking. If it had been completely stopped and wrapped up they would have had to completely start fresh. But the characters relationships are so tied to it.
Very valid points.

Caliburn24 wrote: View Post
From the first half of the season I was pretty sure Tommy was either going to turn evil or get killed. So that wasn't a shock. But it was well done.

I also thought that Det. Lance was probably going to get killed to make room for the new cast members(plus his character really has nothing to do in many episodes). So I enjoyed the misdirection of his conversation with Laural the most of anything in the episode. It'll be nice if he becomes the Jim Gordon to Ollie's Batman, but it'll have the downside of giving Laural even less to do(and shoe-horning her into episodes was already something the writers were struggling with).

Moira was another one on the chopping block, with the Undertaking plot over, her character really has nothing to do except be a normal mother now. Presumably she'll be reduced to a recurring role next season, or maybe just one or two appearances in the whole season.
Nothing to add to your points, but I do agree with them.

I guess QFT

sojourner wrote: View Post
I am guessing Moira's trial will last most of next season. Gives a plot line for both Laurel and Moira to work on.
If it does I will be sad.

Speaking as someone who went to school for Law, though she was complicit in what happened, there's a portion of the law known as the force of personality doctrine meaning if someone forced you to do something under death threat, you're actions are mitigates; not necessarily dismissed, but mitigated.

Arresting after the press conference, legally speaking was absolutely the right thing to do. No question. Investigating her ties to the situation is also legally sound as is having a trial.

Finding her guilty for conspiracy or terrorism under death threat is certainly not founded and the show would be doing the justice system a disservice "rendering" such any sort of a verdict in a fictional show.
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Old May 16 2013, 06:25 PM   #936
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Re: Green Arrow (CW)

The finale was awesome. I liked the battle with merlyn, and Tommy's death was surprising. Olliver's Mom admitting what she did on tV was interesting. I did think Detective Lance was going to die, and while I like him well enough I wouldn't have been that dissappointed if he died. I think the cop obsessed with bringing in the vigilante thing has run its corse. I'm not saying the cops should just suddenly start treating Oliver like an ally, but the obsessed cop thing was getting a little old.

Overall, this show has been great so far. I'm excited for season 2.
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Old May 16 2013, 08:16 PM   #937
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Re: Green Arrow (CW)

That was simply epic and already Arrow has surpassed Smallville's entire 10 year run in this one.
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Old May 16 2013, 09:07 PM   #938
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Re: Green Arrow (CW)

Lighthammer wrote: View Post

sojourner wrote: View Post
I am guessing Moira's trial will last most of next season. Gives a plot line for both Laurel and Moira to work on.
If it does I will be sad.

Speaking as someone who went to school for Law, though she was complicit in what happened, there's a portion of the law known as the force of personality doctrine meaning if someone forced you to do something under death threat, you're actions are mitigates; not necessarily dismissed, but mitigated.

Arresting after the press conference, legally speaking was absolutely the right thing to do. No question. Investigating her ties to the situation is also legally sound as is having a trial.

Finding her guilty for conspiracy or terrorism under death threat is certainly not founded and the show would be doing the justice system a disservice "rendering" such any sort of a verdict in a fictional show.
Good thing I said "trial" and not "found guilty". The trial can easily be dragged out over a season.
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Old May 17 2013, 12:58 AM   #939
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Re: Green Arrow (CW)

sojourner wrote: View Post
Lighthammer wrote: View Post

sojourner wrote: View Post
I am guessing Moira's trial will last most of next season. Gives a plot line for both Laurel and Moira to work on.
If it does I will be sad.

Speaking as someone who went to school for Law, though she was complicit in what happened, there's a portion of the law known as the force of personality doctrine meaning if someone forced you to do something under death threat, you're actions are mitigates; not necessarily dismissed, but mitigated.

Arresting after the press conference, legally speaking was absolutely the right thing to do. No question. Investigating her ties to the situation is also legally sound as is having a trial.

Finding her guilty for conspiracy or terrorism under death threat is certainly not founded and the show would be doing the justice system a disservice "rendering" such any sort of a verdict in a fictional show.
Good thing I said "trial" and not "found guilty". The trial can easily be dragged out over a season.
I suppose THAT's true.

If they go that route though, being someone who was educated in that profession (note, I don't currently work there, so practical experience may be lacking!) I'd almost like to see them take some "artistic license" and not drag out a long trial to demonstrate clear, swift and fair justice; but an investigation taking the much of the season, especially if she is exceedingly complicit, could be very interesting and open up a whole slue of new plot elements.

Heck, if her willingness to pursue the truth becomes a guiding principle of the Queen House, that alone could really help define Ollie's role as a hero in a way he can wholeheartedly follow in her footsteps with pride.

I think seeing her come forward the way she did REALLY touched Ollie in deeply profound ways and the story could play on that while still having Moira work towards repenting for her crimes and being brought to justice.

I might go so far as to say there could be some really profound moments ahead with this line of thought (provided they pursue it in some way).
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Old May 17 2013, 01:30 AM   #940
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Re: Green Arrow (CW)

sojourner wrote: View Post
I am guessing Moira's trial will last most of next season. Gives a plot line for both Laurel and Moira to work on.
But all she has to be made free is kidnap and threaten the death of all the jurors and the judges children, or pretend to do that to prove how bound she was by Malcolm.
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Old May 17 2013, 01:31 AM   #941
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Re: Green Arrow (CW)

I've watched the finale 3 times over the last two days and I can't remember the last time I ever did that.

Not a lot to add to what everyone else has posted, but this series has continually impressed, and I look forward to season 2.
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Old May 17 2013, 07:37 AM   #942
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Re: Green Arrow (CW)

Moira knows that Oliver is hoodie. Their dialogue prior to her call for evacuation makes no sense otherwise.

Oliver should have wondered who tried to kill Malcolm Merlyn. And when he does he should realize that Walter's survival as a hostage proved that Moira was being coerced, making her the prime suspect as Merlyn's would-be assassin.

(Walter's certainty that Moira kidnapped him is irrational but the character is from another series and doesn't understand these things.)

Merlyn is established as maniacally vengeful meaning that all the Queens are his targets. Thea wanders about aimlessly and cluelessly and shouldn't last long, which should give Moira's speech about sacrificing her family some heavy weight.

But the thing about this exciting climax is that Oliver has achieved his goal. Why would he continue to be Green Arrow, especially since he hasn't assumed the identity at all?
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Old May 17 2013, 07:52 AM   #943
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Re: Green Arrow (CW)

When Oliver talked to Moira about what happened after the Queen's Gambit sank he kinda forgot to mention that Robert didn't just sacrifice himself, he murdered a man in cold blood to give his son a better chance to survive. That was hardly heroic, Robert was a bastard and I'm not sure why Oliver thinks he's an example of doing the right thing, the only reason he didn't kill more people is because there was no other non-Olivers on the raft.

Robert pulled the trigger, Moira did the right thing (even if it was really late) and gave people a chance despite doing so would endanger herself and her children, she's the parent who Oliver should look up to.
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Old May 17 2013, 11:35 AM   #944
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Re: Green Arrow (CW)

stj wrote: View Post

But the thing about this exciting climax is that Oliver has achieved his goal. Why would he continue to be Green Arrow, especially since he hasn't assumed the identity at all?
Most likely, he'll go on a guilt trip on account of having failed the Glades and Tommy. Then the vigilante life will be his way of trying to redeem himself.
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Old May 17 2013, 02:48 PM   #945
LaxScrutiny
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Re: Green Arrow (CW)

stj wrote: View Post
Moira knows that Oliver is hoodie. Their dialogue prior to her call for evacuation makes no sense otherwise.
I disagree. Moira knows that Oliver was tied to a chair listening as she admitted everything to The Hood. The conversation makes sense, Moira assuming that Ollie confronted Malcolm as Oliver and challenged him about what he had heard Moira admit.

Oliver should have wondered who tried to kill Malcolm Merlyn. And when he does he should realize that Walter's survival as a hostage proved that Moira was being coerced, making her the prime suspect as Merlyn's would-be assassin.
Agree with completely.

Merlyn is established as maniacally vengeful meaning that all the Queens are his targets. Thea wanders about aimlessly and cluelessly and shouldn't last long, which should give Moira's speech about sacrificing her family some heavy weight.
Merlyn has Ollie in a strangle hold at the end, and states that his sister and mother will be killed shortly after. Merlyn isn't talking about the Glades, he is talking about murdering them himself. The danger that the entire family is in is evident.

But the thing about this exciting climax is that Oliver has achieved his goal. Why would he continue to be Green Arrow, especially since he hasn't assumed the identity at all?
The theme is that Merlyn had always been winning because Ollie didn't know what he was fighting for. At the end, Ollie thanks Merlyn for showing him what he is fighting for. Ollie actually has more reason to go on now, he is fighting for something rather than against a nebulous unknown something.
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