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Go Back   The Trek BBS > Star Trek Movies > Star Trek Movies XI+

Star Trek Movies XI+ Discuss J.J. Abrams' rebooted Star Trek here.

View Poll Results: Grade the movie...
A+ 141 19.11%
A 160 21.68%
A- 99 13.41%
B+ 82 11.11%
B 58 7.86%
B- 27 3.66%
C+ 40 5.42%
C 38 5.15%
C- 24 3.25%
D+ 11 1.49%
D 13 1.76%
D- 10 1.36%
F 35 4.74%
Voters: 738. You may not vote on this poll

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Old May 16 2013, 12:53 PM   #2236
taintedarchive
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Re: STAR TREK INTO DARKNESS - Grading & Discussion [SPOILERS]

I think it's all too Star Wars
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Old May 16 2013, 01:04 PM   #2237
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Re: STAR TREK INTO DARKNESS - Grading & Discussion [SPOILERS]

teacake wrote: View Post
J. Allen wrote: View Post
During the scene in the brig, Khan explains that he was protecting his family, his crew. Kirk gets angry and berates Khan for killing Christopher Pike and other innocents. Khan then explains that Admiral Marcus controlled him, because Marcus had Khan's people as a bargaining chip, and that what he had to do was ordered by Marcus, who controlled the strings. That's how a supposedly secure facility was compromised. It was all set up by Marcus so that he could order the Enterprise to head to the edge of Klingon space, fire those torpedoes at Kronos where Khan was hiding, at which point the Enterprise's warp core would fail upon return, and they would be identified by the Klingons as the aggressors, at which point Marcus could come in with his new ship, and he could have his war with the Klingons.

It was all a setup by Admiral Marcus.
Wait, so Marcus ORDERED Khan to blow up the facility? Marcus was in Section 31 but ordered his own people blown up or just the archive on top blown up? (I was never too sure if Section 31 itself was hit). So this act of terrorism was engineered by Marcus with Khan as his attack dog?
Is that right? Marcus could have been easily killed and probably would have been if Kirk hadn't taken action at Daystrom. Didn't Khan say he killed the Section 31 people for revenge at killing Khans people allegedly. That doesn't explain why Khan went to Kronos though. Perhaps he thought he could get asylum there and Marcus saw it as his opportunity to kill two birds (3) with one stone to send the torpedoes there. Marcus didn't really know Kirk that well if he thought he was going to blindly obey orders though.
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Old May 16 2013, 01:12 PM   #2238
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Re: STAR TREK INTO DARKNESS - Grading & Discussion [SPOILERS]

I meant ordered the London bomb. I'm going to assume that Marcus lost control of Khan by the time Khan blew up the meeting. But I'm still confused as to when he actually lost control of Khan if Marcus was behind the London bombing.
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Old May 16 2013, 01:17 PM   #2239
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Re: STAR TREK INTO DARKNESS - Grading & Discussion [SPOILERS]

teacake wrote: View Post
One of Kirk's flings? HE FLUNG WITH CAROL'S MOM?!
Well, in TOS, Dr Janet Wallace (Sarah Marshall, and English actress) is a former girlfriend of Kirk's, was once happily married to Theodore Wallace. In one scenario proposed for ST II, they were going to reprise Janet Wallace and show that she had had Kirk's son, David Wallace. They didn't go with concept that since it might seem that Kirk had had a fling with a married woman. So Carol Marcus was created instead.

So Janet Wallace and Carol Marcus are probably similar in age. (Marshall is two years younger than Shatner.) Perhaps they are sisters-in-law? Kirk had flings with both of them.

Janet's husband, Theodore, was said to be 26 years older than Janet, when he fell in love with her. Maybe Theo's first wife was Carol's mother?
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Old May 16 2013, 01:23 PM   #2240
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Re: STAR TREK INTO DARKNESS - Grading & Discussion [SPOILERS]

Squiggy wrote: View Post
I, for one, am going to love seeing Bernd's head exploding over the next month.
THE NEW SHIPS ARE NO BIGGER THAN THE OLD ONES. THAT SHOT WHERE THE VENGEANCE'S ENGINEERING HULL WAS THE SIZE OF ALCATRAZ ISLAND WAS A MISTAKE. ALL THE SETS ARE MISTAKES. ALL THE CG ARE VFX ERRORS. THAT CARGO HOLD SCOTTY RAN ACROSS WAS REALLY THE SIZE OF A BROOM CLOSET.
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Old May 16 2013, 01:26 PM   #2241
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Re: STAR TREK INTO DARKNESS - Grading & Discussion [SPOILERS]

Therin of Andor wrote: View Post
Janet's husband, Theodore, was said to be 26 years older than Janet, when he fell in love with her. Maybe Theo's first wife was Carol's mother?
Hence the attraction of Kirk.
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Old May 16 2013, 01:27 PM   #2242
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Re: STAR TREK INTO DARKNESS - Grading & Discussion [SPOILERS]

I think the Wallace bit was a nod to hard core TOS fans. I liked it.

I believe that Marcus lost control of Khan the moment Khan was captured since Kirk did the right thing by going to Qonos instead of shooting it. Given Marcus' statement as you talk to him, Marcus was expecting a fight when he arrived not, Kirk telling him why he is there.

My favorite line is Kirk ordering McCoy not to speak in metaphor.
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Old May 16 2013, 01:35 PM   #2243
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Re: STAR TREK INTO DARKNESS - Grading & Discussion [SPOILERS]

throwback wrote: View Post
I have this question to ask. In our contemporary world, when the nation's capital is put on alert, there is an increased emphasis on the air traffic routes being monitored and suspicious aircraft are immediately tagged and interceptors are sent. In the film, I would presuppose that San Francisco and Paris and other major cities with Federation buildings are placed on alert and there is an increase in vigilance. So, is it explained in the movie how Khan was able to pilot a gunship that close to the conference room in an effort at assassinating several members of Starfleet?
That is a good question and really the one big plot hole in the movie for me. Who knows, maybe they were busy issuing 3oz and under tubes of toothpaste for everyone?

Overall, I enjoyed the hell out of this movie. It was fun and entertaining, which at the end of the day is what I want from any movie. The audience was laughing and cheering ... it was special .. which is what I want from Star Trek. Movies like Insurrection are fine (and I liked it), but it is also the kind of movie ended the ST run of movies.

Beyond the obvious that it had Kahn in it, this movie felt like Wrath of Kahn with the pacing and being a good old fashion good guy versus bad guy movie.

I think those people looking for something similar to TOS/TNG should wait for another TV series, where perhaps the medium where their brand of Star Trek is more suited. Personally, I like both and can enjoy rewatching TNG on Netflix as I am doing now and watching crap blow up in 3D like I did last night and enjoy that as well. I guess I am embracing IDIC
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Old May 16 2013, 01:37 PM   #2244
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Re: STAR TREK INTO DARKNESS - Grading & Discussion [SPOILERS]

ProwlAlpha wrote: View Post
I think the Wallace bit was a nod to hard core TOS fans. I liked it.

I believe that Marcus lost control of Khan the moment Khan was captured since Kirk did the right thing by going to Qonos instead of shooting it. Given Marcus' statement as you talk to him, Marcus was expecting a fight when he arrived not, Kirk telling him why he is there.
But surely he lost control of him before Khan blew up the meeting Marcus was in?
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Old May 16 2013, 01:43 PM   #2245
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Re: STAR TREK INTO DARKNESS - Grading & Discussion [SPOILERS]

teacake wrote: View Post
throwback wrote: View Post
Starfleet may not have experienced terrorism in its history. (This is uncertain.)
There is terrorism against Starfleet in Enterprise.
And the whole "Vulcan isn't there anymore" aspect of things.

teacake wrote: View Post
I meant ordered the London bomb. I'm going to assume that Marcus lost control of Khan by the time Khan blew up the meeting. But I'm still confused as to when he actually lost control of Khan if Marcus was behind the London bombing.
I think the meeting was part of the plan. Blow up the "archive" that apparently only high (above Admiral Pike) ranking personel knew about. That got all the command staff of all the ships in the sector in one room. KHAN kills them, "misses" Marcus, gets away and Marcus is left to militarize Starfleet to combat the recent tragedies.

That's probably also why they didn't bust Kirk back down to cadet. Keep him on Enterprise so Khan can take him out at the meeting.
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Old May 16 2013, 01:55 PM   #2246
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Re: STAR TREK INTO DARKNESS - Grading & Discussion [SPOILERS]

My take on the plan, was Marcus was counting on Kirk's shoot first ask question later style due him knowing about him from Pike. It was all Marcus' plan up until Marcus got word that Khan was captured, so the plan changed to the Vengeance destroying the Enterprise due to Kirk's "involvement" with Khan. At least we didn't get a Bond-style premature obit of the Enterprise quoted by Marcus.

My overall opinion of the movie, it didn't have a TWOK feel nor a Space Seed feel, I got the Dreadnought novel vibe going on, and I liked it, it was very appropriate for this timeline.
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Old May 16 2013, 01:56 PM   #2247
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Re: STAR TREK INTO DARKNESS - Grading & Discussion [SPOILERS]

teacake wrote: View Post
I meant ordered the London bomb. I'm going to assume that Marcus lost control of Khan by the time Khan blew up the meeting. But I'm still confused as to when he actually lost control of Khan if Marcus was behind the London bombing.
Pretty sure the Starfleet meeting was only a couple of hours at most after the London bombing? Hence Marcus saying "by now, some of you will have heard about the bombing in London".

I thought it was established that Khan basically blew up that building because he knew a Starfleet meeting would be called and that gave him a chance of killing Marcus
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Old May 16 2013, 01:56 PM   #2248
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Re: STAR TREK INTO DARKNESS - Grading & Discussion [SPOILERS]

I saw it in IMAX 3D last night and it was simply awesome! The visuals were spectacular, the acting was fantastic (Cumberbatch was insanely good, and the Enterprise crew has a chemistry that juet feels right).

The audience actually clapped and cheered when Harrison said his real name, as well as a huge applause when Nimoy appeared on screen.

This film, to me, actually eclipses 2009 a little due to the feel and pacing of it, and I absolutely LOVE the 2009 movie!

A couple of things:

-For those who feel that the soundtrack is pretty much the same, I suggest you listen to both soundtracks - although there are some similarities to 2009, it is virtually a completely different soundtrack.

-For those who said that the scene leading up to Kirk in the warp core was word for word taken from TWOK, I suggest you go back and watch TWOK. A couple of lines were the same, but it was in no way word for word the same.
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Old May 16 2013, 02:16 PM   #2249
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Re: STAR TREK INTO DARKNESS - Grading & Discussion [SPOILERS]

teacake wrote: View Post
I am unclear as to what point Marcus lost control of Khan.
Yep, me too. Either I missed something, or it was badly explained. Which part of the plan was whose? Or which parts were unplanned?

The way I read it initially was that Marcus unthawed Khan purely so he could work on his weapons/war strategies. Khan wanted his crew back, but Marcus wouldn't allow it, so Khan blew up the datacentre and attacked the captains' conference, then escaped, knowing that Marcus would retaliate by firing his torpedoes at Khan on Kronos (presumably this wouldn't kill them, if they were still alive). But that raises the question, if Khan could hide his crew in the torpdoes, why would he not just unthaw them? He must have had access, he did it in secret, but he couldn't unthaw them? Actually, doesn't he say that he didn't know if they were even alive? That doesn't make sense, then.

So, second possible scenario: Marcus planned the bombing and the attack, Khan was following his orders. He wanted an excuse to launch at attack on Kronos because he wanted to provoke a war with the Klingons in order to force Starfleet to become more military-focused. Khan wasn't denied access to his frozen crew but he did secretly put them in the torpedoes because he ultimately wanted to double-cross Marcus and take control himself. Of course, this means Khan would have to assume that Marcus would double-cross Khan by trying to kill him with torpedoes, and this also means that Marcus intentionally let himself get fired upon at the captain's conference, which seems pretty reckless to me.

Third possible scenario is somewhere inbetween: the bombing was Marcus's idea but the attack at the conference wasn't. Firing the torpedoes was a genuine act of revenge.

Or the fourth possibility, which, as the film was unfolding, I genuinely thought would happen: everything was Marcus's plan. He planned the bombing, he planned the attack, he put Khan's crew in the torpedoes as a way to secretly deliver them back to Khan without Starfleet knowing about it, with the ultimate goal of... well, that's where I don't have an answer. They could have gone with "he wanted Khan and his men to provoke the Klingons into a war", but there must be easier ways of doing that!

Did Marcus even WANT to provoke a war? He sends Kirk to bomb Kronos because he wanted the Klingons to blame Kirk for it. He purposely suggested a stealth attack so as to NOT provoke a war, even after Kirk suggested just going straight to Kronos anyway.

Quite honestly, I can't figure out either Marcus or Khan's motives in this film, beyond vaguely wanting power for themselves. It's as if there HAD to be a certain sequence of events, certain things had to happen, but they couldn't find a convincing way to make it happen, so it's just glossed over with woolly motives.





Can anyone explain this? Was I not paying attention?
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Old May 16 2013, 02:17 PM   #2250
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Re: STAR TREK INTO DARKNESS - Grading & Discussion [SPOILERS]

mos6507 wrote: View Post
The critics are not universally praising this thing.

Wired magazine just chimed in.
I love how you people find the few reviews that didn't fully enjoy the movie and go SEEE SEE?!! WE'RE RIGHT! It's hilarious.
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