RSS iconTwitter iconFacebook icon

The Trek BBS title image

The Trek BBS statistics

Threads: 137,851
Posts: 5,328,203
Members: 24,552
Currently online: 721
Newest member: SpammetySpam

TrekToday headlines

Cubify Star Trek 3DMe Mini Figurines
By: T'Bonz on Jul 11

Latest Official Starships Collection Ships
By: T'Bonz on Jul 10

Seven of Nine Bobble Head
By: T'Bonz on Jul 9

Pegg The Prankster
By: T'Bonz on Jul 9

More Trek Stars Join Unbelievable!!!!!
By: T'Bonz on Jul 8

Star Trek #35 Preview
By: T'Bonz on Jul 8

New ThinkGeek Trek Apparel
By: T'Bonz on Jul 7

Star Trek Movie Prop Auction
By: T'Bonz on Jul 7

Drexler: NX Engineering Room Construction
By: T'Bonz on Jul 7

New Trek Home Fashions
By: T'Bonz on Jul 4


Welcome! The Trek BBS is the number one place to chat about Star Trek with like-minded fans. Please login to see our full range of forums as well as the ability to send and receive private messages, track your favourite topics and of course join in the discussions.

If you are a new visitor, join us for free. If you are an existing member please login below. Note: for members who joined under our old messageboard system, please login with your display name not your login name.


Go Back   The Trek BBS > Lounges & General Chat > Miscellaneous

Miscellaneous Discussion of non-Trek topics.

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old May 16 2013, 04:30 AM   #271
gturner
Admiral
 
Location: Kentucky
Re: 5 year old given rifle as gift, kills 2 year old sister

Gary7 wrote: View Post
There are thousands of children killed every year at the hands of adults. It is VERY unfortunate and there's little we can do to stop it. Often the warning signs are not there until the crime is ultimately committed.

So yes, there are more homicides committed by other means. But it's not about the overall quantity of deaths that the ban concerns. It's about the number of deaths in a single incident. Most homicides involve people who know each other. But when a death is caused at random, no "personal cause" at hand, it angers people the most. These assault weapons make it very easy to just kill a bunch of people all at once. It empowers the killer to murder many at will. THIS is what the ban is all about. Because if we don't do anything to stop it, the fear (and right so), is that more people will seek to do the same thing. Troubled, desperate people who see this as an effective means to vent their anger.
They were second graders. Give a man a hammer and he can kill them until he gets tired, and without raising the alarm that the sound of a gunshot would cause. The largest school massacre in US history didn't even involve a single shooting victim. It was all done with explosives planted by a school employee over months.

Banning the sale of assault rifles won't stop such people, because they plan, and they improvise. Europe has school massacres too, as does Russia where civilian rifles are hardly even allowed (my town has more than all of Russia combined).

In response to the tragedy, Newtown voted down even the idea of providing an armed guard. If a schizophrenic nutcase wanders in and breaks the glass to grab an axe, they're still screwed.
gturner is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 16 2013, 04:48 AM   #272
Kestrel
Vice Admiral
 
Kestrel's Avatar
 
Location: East Tennessee
Re: 5 year old given rifle as gift, kills 2 year old sister

Utter bollocks of course. And I love the effort to pass this off on the administration somehow.
__________________
"If Romeo had just masturbated a couple of times a week he would have saved both those nice families a heap of trouble."
Kestrel is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 16 2013, 04:54 AM   #273
cooleddie74
Fleet Admiral
 
cooleddie74's Avatar
 
Location: The Warped Sector of the Demented Quadrant
View cooleddie74's Twitter Profile
Re: 5 year old given rifle as gift, kills 2 year old sister

We can make it more difficult for a schizophrenic nut hellbent on slaughtering innocent people to do so and in great numbers. Sure, some unhinged, dangerous person can grab an axe and hack a number of people to death before he's killed, restrained and arrested or takes his own life, but what are the chances that a guy wielding an axe can cut down 26 human beings in a matter of just a couple of minutes? Even the strongest, brawniest and fastest Oregon lumberjacks in the best of shape can't hack 26 people to death in just a couple of minutes.

Of course a nut will use anything at his disposal. But why not take legal, constitutionally permissible steps to make it a lot harder for him to use the deadliest and fastest weapon that can wound or kill the largest amount of people in the shortest amount of time? 26 Americans don't die in a matter of just a few brief minutes because of sharpened pencils, baseball bats or an axe.
__________________
Human instinct is pretty strong. You can't expect us to change overnight.

-Captain Jonathan Archer, 2151
cooleddie74 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 16 2013, 05:20 AM   #274
gturner
Admiral
 
Location: Kentucky
Re: 5 year old given rifle as gift, kills 2 year old sister

^ Note: We all don't live in the parts of the country where the police are three minutes away. People who live in the boonies realize that it will be half an hour, at best, before anyone arrives, and then another half hour before they figure out what approach to take.

ETA: And also, a pump action shotgun would've done just as much damage, if not more. Heck, based on old US Army tests, killing 26 people with an 1819 Hall flintlock would've taken only 8 minutes 14 seconds, assuming that the assailant didn't just start bashing in skulls with the butt of his rifle.
gturner is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 16 2013, 05:26 AM   #275
cooleddie74
Fleet Admiral
 
cooleddie74's Avatar
 
Location: The Warped Sector of the Demented Quadrant
View cooleddie74's Twitter Profile
Re: 5 year old given rifle as gift, kills 2 year old sister

Once again you miss the point.

Whoosh.
__________________
Human instinct is pretty strong. You can't expect us to change overnight.

-Captain Jonathan Archer, 2151
cooleddie74 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 16 2013, 05:41 AM   #276
gturner
Admiral
 
Location: Kentucky
Re: 5 year old given rifle as gift, kills 2 year old sister

The point being what? You're going to ban axes, flintlocks, and baseball bats, or that you're going to ban any weapon that school officials might have handy? The only people who are going to be obeying your laws are the responders and people already in place, or passersby. Such people have quickly and efficiently stopped many school shootings, often before it rose to the level of a "shooting", much less a massacre.
gturner is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 16 2013, 07:15 AM   #277
MacLeod
Admiral
 
Location: Great Britain
Re: 5 year old given rifle as gift, kills 2 year old sister

gturner wrote: View Post
^ Note: We all don't live in the parts of the country where the police are three minutes away. People who live in the boonies realize that it will be half an hour, at best, before anyone arrives, and then another half hour before they figure out what approach to take.

ETA: And also, a pump action shotgun would've done just as much damage, if not more. Heck, based on old US Army tests, killing 26 people with an 1819 Hall flintlock would've taken only 8 minutes 14 seconds, assuming that the assailant didn't just start bashing in skulls with the butt of his rifle.
And people living in rural parts of countries like the UK, Australia etc.. might live in parts of their country where the police might be 30 mins away as well.
__________________
On the continent of wild endeavour in the mountains of solace and solitude there stood the citadel of the time lords, the oldest and most mighty race in the universe looking down on the galaxies below sworn never to interfere only to watch.
MacLeod is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 16 2013, 07:21 AM   #278
MacLeod
Admiral
 
Location: Great Britain
Re: 5 year old given rifle as gift, kills 2 year old sister

gturner wrote: View Post
MacLeod wrote: View Post
And what harm would there be in a background check? esp. as most Americans support backgrounds.

And of course just because a member of the electorae votes a certain way doesn't mean they support all the policies of the party/person they voted for.
Again, we already have background checks. They are usually quite thorough, to the point where tens of thousands of people have to go through extra scrutiny just because their names just happen to match other people, even though their drivers license and Social Security numbers are different.

Aren't their some loopholes in the background check regulations that do exist?

During a private sale is any background check performed?
At Gun Shows are background checks performed?
Are background checks the same in every State?
__________________
On the continent of wild endeavour in the mountains of solace and solitude there stood the citadel of the time lords, the oldest and most mighty race in the universe looking down on the galaxies below sworn never to interfere only to watch.
MacLeod is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 16 2013, 07:52 PM   #279
Gary7
Rear Admiral
 
Gary7's Avatar
 
Location: Near Manhattan ··· in an alternate reality
Re: 5 year old given rifle as gift, kills 2 year old sister

A grenade would do much more damage. Lob it into the room, close the door and run. But are grenades legal to buy? NO.

Yes, one could come up with their own improvised explosives, but they are inherently dangerous to handle and risk going off prematurely. The movie theater killer defaulted to assault weapons because they are convenient. His explosives were all rigged up and waiting for police at his home.

But this is besides the point. The killer wants to see his victims die. He wants to aim his weapon, pull the trigger, and feel the satisfaction of killing someone. Lobbing a bomb and running away does not deliver the raw feeling of the moment they crave.

The TROUBLE is our society's indulgence in these assault weapons, making it a "past time" to load up and unload on multiple targets in seconds. You learn how to use one then train your kids how to use them too... never mind that one of them may be mentally unstable. Shooting for sport is fine for single action. But for weapons that can kill dozens in seconds? I'm sorry, there's no good reason for it.
__________________
Remembering Ensign Mallory.
Gary7 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 16 2013, 08:15 PM   #280
Davros
Fleet Admiral
 
Davros's Avatar
 
Location: Kaled bunker, Skaro
Re: 5 year old given rifle as gift, kills 2 year old sister

gturner wrote: View Post
^ Note: We all don't live in the parts of the country where the police are three minutes away. People who live in the boonies realize that it will be half an hour, at best, before anyone arrives, and then another half hour before they figure out what approach to take.
And nothing that has been put up for a vote would prevent you from defending yourself in those situations. Unless that is you couldn't pass a background check.

ETA: And also, a pump action shotgun would've done just as much damage, if not more. Heck, based on old US Army tests, killing 26 people with an 1819 Hall flintlock would've taken only 8 minutes 14 seconds, assuming that the assailant didn't just start bashing in skulls with the butt of his rifle.
One can run away from a person reloading a single shot muzzle loader with relative ease. So don't go trying to equate such archaic weapons with modern ones.

gturner wrote: View Post
The point being what? You're going to ban axes, flintlocks, and baseball bats, or that you're going to ban any weapon that school officials might have handy? The only people who are going to be obeying your laws are the responders and people already in place, or passersby. Such people have quickly and efficiently stopped many school shootings, often before it rose to the level of a "shooting", much less a massacre.
Nobody is banning anything. They couldn't even get background checks passed.
__________________
"Taxes are the price we pay for a civilized society," -Oliver Wendell Holmes
Davros is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 17 2013, 02:26 AM   #281
cooleddie74
Fleet Admiral
 
cooleddie74's Avatar
 
Location: The Warped Sector of the Demented Quadrant
View cooleddie74's Twitter Profile
Re: 5 year old given rifle as gift, kills 2 year old sister

Yeah, I don't get where the "you're going to ban everything" hysteria comes from except from irrational paranoia on the scale of Oliver Stone dropping acid. Who's banned anything? Who's going to even come close to banning anything? We can't even get mandatory, nationwide criminal and mental illness background checks passed without catcalls that the Constitution is being trampled on by Imaginary Hitler and we're one short step away from the planet that Landru ruled.

Shit, we've had at least two posters defend using mail order to buy rifles, and without any background checks being conducted during the purchasing process. How unhinged and/or big an irresponsible asshole do you have to be to want people to be buy guns and live ammunition through mail order and without any checks on the buyer?

A guy named Lee Harvey Oswald did just that. Twice. The results: a murder attempt on a U.S. Army general, a dead police officer, a Texas governor with multiple bullet wounds and the assassination of the 35th President of the United States.
__________________
Human instinct is pretty strong. You can't expect us to change overnight.

-Captain Jonathan Archer, 2151
cooleddie74 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 17 2013, 03:31 AM   #282
Davros
Fleet Admiral
 
Davros's Avatar
 
Location: Kaled bunker, Skaro
Re: 5 year old given rifle as gift, kills 2 year old sister

If they can't sell the fear of weapons seizing government, their entire argument falls apart.
__________________
"Taxes are the price we pay for a civilized society," -Oliver Wendell Holmes
Davros is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 17 2013, 04:03 AM   #283
cooleddie74
Fleet Admiral
 
cooleddie74's Avatar
 
Location: The Warped Sector of the Demented Quadrant
View cooleddie74's Twitter Profile
Re: 5 year old given rifle as gift, kills 2 year old sister

Not like it was the most bulletproof argument to begin with. No pun intended.
__________________
Human instinct is pretty strong. You can't expect us to change overnight.

-Captain Jonathan Archer, 2151
cooleddie74 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 18 2013, 01:20 AM   #284
gturner
Admiral
 
Location: Kentucky
Re: 5 year old given rifle as gift, kills 2 year old sister

Well, so you've even lost anti-gun crusaders Joe Scarborough and Piers Morgan on background checks.

Amusingly, we already have background checks and they can't work much better than the currently do, unless you live in the fantasy land where criminals selling guns to each other check each other for a valid ID and then call federal law enforcement for permission to commit a crime (you should push for bank robbery permits). The system fails to respond so often that honest private gun sellers will just assume that the buyer was just being victimized by Obama campaign operatives and go ahead and sell the gun anyway, taking care to pass it through three or four hacked identities to keep everything legal, when their not running background checks on their daughter's new boyfriend's family.
gturner is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 19 2013, 03:22 PM   #285
Chatty
Ensign
 
Location: Natchez, MS
Send a message via Yahoo to Chatty
Re: 5 year old given rifle as gift, kills 2 year old sister

I know it's probably been said in this thread before, having 19 pages and all, but banning guns isn't the solution. Teaching safe gun handling is.

And the gun should never have been left where he could get to it, whether loaded (as it was) or unloaded. Guns are not toys. My father taught me to handle guns when I was a teen after he retired from the AF and I'm now 53 with four grandchildren. For a five year old, the gun should have been put up until a responsible adult could supervise and teach him gun safety.

And water guns just teach a kid that they can point a gun at others and 'shoot' them, it doesn't teach them that bullets will kill if shot into a living thing.
Chatty is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump



All times are GMT +1. The time now is 11:28 PM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.6
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
FireFox 2+ or Internet Explorer 7+ highly recommended.