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Deep Space Nine What We Left Behind, we will always have here.

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Old May 15 2013, 03:02 PM   #1
Nacluv
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What's up with some DS9 fanboys' attitude?

Even though my posts most certainly will not give that impression, as I tend to appear to emit a lot of criticism for the series, I have always liked DS9 very much. It's my 3rd or 2nd favorite series. There's of course a large jump between the 1st and the 2nd & 3rd and even bigger when it comes to the rest.

What sometimes causes me to seem to be opposing the series is the attitude and views I've experienced from some (or many) of its more bullheaded fanboys.

Like I said, I have always liked the show, but I'm aware that it might appear that I sometimes appear to be denigrating the show, but actually it has nothing to do with criticising but merely defending the other series from the sometimes harsh, unnuanced and eventually baseless criticism it receives from people who only like DS9 and considers everything else to be flies in comparison.

Some are simply biased, some are obtuse and some are just astoundingly ignorant.

One of the most fundamental elements in those attitutdes is its acclaimed uniqueness. I'm not saying that it isn't very different to TNG, different to TOS. I'm simply asserting that the aberrations tend to be aggrandized.

What consternates me the most about the more stubborn DS9:ers is that when they discuss the other shows and how bad they are to DS9, it's very easy to assume that they have not even seen the other shows or perhaps could not comprehend them. I even read an article once about how DS9 was underrated and misunderstood that stated that Odo was the first character to convey a real outsider perspective in Star Trek since "unlike Spock and Data, Odo was quite content to not be a human and sometimes made a good point when rejecting irrational or normative human values". Is this cretinism in agglutination with indoctrination? Everyone knows that Spock rejected human values EVEN more than Odo, if it was much more or little more doesn't matter, it was definitely more.

With stubbornness, as I've mentioned several times, I'm referring to the phenomenon of exaggerating and elevating the differences but more importantly; to flimsily make claims such as (paraphrased summary) "DS9 was good because it ignored Gene Roddenberry's utopian society vision and non-conflict approach, it was more realistic because it prestened the existence of consequences to actions". So in TOS and TNG, there was no conflicts between staff or with other cultures because one could avoid it simply because everyone could be dealt with by simply making easy compromises?

I believe I lost my thread somewhere, but I'll come back and elaborate on both what I've written, and that which I forgot in the process.

Excuse me, but I find it rather repugnant to read about fanboys who are so delusional that they actually believe their own statements about how "DS9 was a complete 180 to the utopian version of TNG".

Last edited by Nacluv; May 15 2013 at 03:32 PM. Reason: fixed some typo and grammar
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Old May 15 2013, 03:10 PM   #2
Ryva Brall
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Re: What's up with some DS9 fanboys' attitude?

I cringe at the very word "fanboy". The people who use that word to describe themselves are almost always blindly loyal fanatics who think everyone who disagrees with them is an illogical, sub-human idiot. I love DS9, but I don't live to tear apart everyone who doesn't think it's the greatest thing in the history of mankind. Needless to say, I agree with everything you said.

I'd like to tell all fanboys, not just the DS9 ones, to -- in the words of the esteemed Shat -- "Get a life."
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Old May 15 2013, 03:19 PM   #3
Nacluv
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Re: What's up with some DS9 fanboys' attitude?

Ryva Brall wrote: View Post
I cringe at the very word "fanboy". The people who use that word to describe themselves are almost always blindly loyal fanatics who think everyone who disagrees with them is an illogical, sub-human idiot. I love DS9, but I don't live to tear apart everyone who doesn't think it's the greatest thing in the history of mankind. Needless to say, I agree with everything you said.

I'd like to tell all fanboys, not just the DS9 ones, to -- in the words of the esteemed Shat -- "Get a life."
Exactly. I do not negate those proposed attributes, I'm simply elucidating that some fans tend to unilaterally put these differences and elements totally out of relativity and context based on personal biases and feelings.

That particular B&W reasoning couldn't really be any more wrong here and it's so incredibly irrational. And I consider every person I know to be very irrational so when I use the adverb incredibly, it's meaning has a lot of weight.
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Old May 15 2013, 03:36 PM   #4
R. Star
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Re: What's up with some DS9 fanboys' attitude?

Yeah, this isn't behavior unique to just DS9. Or Star Trek. There simply are some people that take things too far. They assume that their opinions are fact and anyone who thinks differently has something wrong with them.

DS9's great. I think it's the best of Star Trek. If you don't, that's your privilege. If you want to argue about it, shall we debate whose favorite color is superior?
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Old May 15 2013, 04:15 PM   #5
Nacluv
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Re: What's up with some DS9 fanboys' attitude?

Tosk wrote: View Post
That's a long post just to complain about the opinions of other people. Maybe just don't worry about it, and avoid pejoratively calling them fanboys? ...and cretins for that matter. Be happy and live longer.
You see, it's not really about their personal opinions of DS9. It's about spreading disinformation about the other shows based on those biases.

I don't mind people that think DS9 is the best of Trek. I don't reject the elements that are attributed to the show, unless exaggerated and polarized. What I do oppose is people making false claims about the other shows.
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Old May 15 2013, 04:19 PM   #6
Tosk
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Re: What's up with some DS9 fanboys' attitude?

My apologies, you must have still been typing when I deleted my message. For the record, I only removed it because I decided I didn't want to "get into it" after all.
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Old May 15 2013, 04:22 PM   #7
Nacluv
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Re: What's up with some DS9 fanboys' attitude?

Tosk wrote: View Post
My apologies, you must have still been typing when I deleted my message. For the record, I only removed it because I decided I didn't want to "get into it" after all.
That's understandable.
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Old May 15 2013, 07:06 PM   #8
-Brett-
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Re: What's up with some DS9 fanboys' attitude?

What's up with trying to resuscitate a dead issue? It's been years since I've seen anyone behaving in a way that even remotely resembles what you describe.

Pretending for a second that I've travelled back in time five years, the only thing "up" with it is that people are allowed to have opinions and interpretations different from yours.
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Old May 15 2013, 08:29 PM   #9
Nacluv
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Re: What's up with some DS9 fanboys' attitude?

-Brett- wrote: View Post
Pretending for a second that I've travelled back in time five years, the only thing "up" with it is that people are allowed to have opinions and interpretations different from yours.
You're probably right. I'm probably just confused about the things that I can't understand, such as interpretations of DS9 as the antipode of TNG.

I am perplexed by the people who really seems to believe that DS9 was the only show with character flaws, politics and metaphysics which couldn't be further from the truth.

I'm also rather baffled by mantras such as "DS9 challenged Gene Roddenberry's utopian vision and the characters were not perfect".

They just go on and on about how DS9, unlike TOS & TNG, showed that the universe wasn't a paradise and that people actually still were humans who still had the ability to make mistakes.

When those people utter things like that, it makes me doubt that they really have seen the predecessors to DS9.

I simply disapprove of diminishing TOS & TNG just to swagger and aggrandize DS9's uniqueness. It was more original than TNG was to TOS, but it was not THAT unique. There were conflicts and idealistically optimal compromises were something hard to achieve even then.
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Old May 15 2013, 10:11 PM   #10
Ryva Brall
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Re: What's up with some DS9 fanboys' attitude?

Nacluv wrote: View Post
I am perplexed by the people who really seems to believe that DS9 was the only show with character flaws, politics and metaphysics which couldn't be further from the truth.
Dude, don't even try to understand the so-called "logic" of these people. Most of them spend eighteen hours a day embroiled in heated arguments in the "Comments" section of YouTube.
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Old May 15 2013, 10:38 PM   #11
GameOn
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Re: What's up with some DS9 fanboys' attitude?

I don't see the point in this thread. It feels like you're just complaining about the conclusions of a handful of people who try to dictate their opinions to others.
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Old May 16 2013, 02:36 AM   #12
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Re: What's up with some DS9 fanboys' attitude?

I think part of it is that they're so used to having to defend DS9 to fans of other series that they've taken to attaching unnecessary hyperbole to their arguments. They're in the mental habit of thinking they're talking to somebody who hates DS9 for equally stupid reasons like "It's not on a ship!"

But really I think TNG and DS9 are more similar to each other than any other two shows. Though DS9 showed more character conflict, the two shows had basically the same ideals and the same story resolution styles. I can't imagine how somebody could love one and hate the other unless they're applying some kind of extreme aesthetic bias.

Then there's the college kids who took economics 101, came to the conclusion that all altruism and optimism was evil and stupid and called it 'Libertarianism', then denigrate TNG on half-understood principle to prove how much smarter they are than everyone.
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Old May 16 2013, 04:11 AM   #13
Phily B
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Re: What's up with some DS9 fanboys' attitude?

DS9 fans are a paranoid bunch.
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Old May 16 2013, 09:51 AM   #14
Nacluv
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Re: What's up with some DS9 fanboys' attitude?

Ryva Brall wrote: View Post
Dude, don't even try to understand the so-called "logic" of these people. Most of them spend eighteen hours a day embroiled in heated arguments in the "Comments" section of YouTube.
Yes, I've seen those arguments on YouTube. A rational DS9 fan who didn't take part in the "debates" simply observed that it seems some nerds have to hate something in order to love something else, maybe that's true. Star Trek vs. Star Wars hits my mind.

JirinPanthosa wrote: View Post
I think part of it is that they're so used to having to defend DS9 to fans of other series that they've taken to attaching unnecessary hyperbole to their arguments. They're in the mental habit of thinking they're talking to somebody who hates DS9 for equally stupid reasons like "It's not on a ship!"
Actually, I believe that "It's not on a ship" is a more probable impetus for the show not being as popular as the others in comparison to the theories of "People didn't like that DS9 challenged Roddenberry's utopia and couldn't bear such character flaws on Star Trek", which is based on facts that are not entirely true.

Again, only in comparison between those two. "It's not on a ship" is far from the only reason and other factors may be bigger in size, but I believe that this is a factor that actually has some grounds in truth.

Let's face it, of all the nerds and common TV watchers that exist, everyone is not particular bright and open-minded.



JirinPanthosa wrote: View Post
But really I think TNG and DS9 are more similar to each other than any other two shows. Though DS9 showed more character conflict, the two shows had basically the same ideals and the same story resolution styles. I can't imagine how somebody could love one and hate the other unless they're applying some kind of extreme aesthetic bias.
You're so right when it comes to story and resolution styles. But when it comes to which aspects of the plots are centralized and where the focus lie, I actually think they are more different to each other than both are to TOS.

I see TOS as a parent where TNG inherited one half and DS9 the other. TNG tends to be somewhat more plot-driven than DS9 and DS9 tends to be more character-driven in comparison and I would put TOS inbetween. TOS is also inbetween when it comes to the Technobabble!

Although there are strong similiarities, I believe that DS9 tends to reincarnate and embody different aspects of TOS than TNG does, and that's why even TOS fans (which in my experience generally are more prone to like both or none) can be so divided. TNG is very concentrated on scientific and philosophical concepts, it's basically simply about different ideas and scenarios. While DS9 is not as much about ideas as it is about telling interesting stories and character interactions.

I'm simply speaking from a general perspective based on a total sum of each series. I think they converge at most when it comes to some of it's most fantastique episodes. The Inner Light could easily have been written for DS9 and The Visitor could easily have worked for TNG.

While I do acknowledge these differences, I just find it hard how one could like the other and dislike the other.

I guess I like the idea and plot-oriented style of TNG more and I also often tend to find TNG to be more subtle than DS9, but these things become irrelevant when you account for the totalities, the overall quality. Generally, it's all done in such an optimal way that you no longer care about the differences any more.
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Old May 16 2013, 04:50 PM   #15
Ryva Brall
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Re: What's up with some DS9 fanboys' attitude?

Nacluv wrote: View Post
Yes, I've seen those arguments on YouTube. A rational DS9 fan who didn't take part in the "debates" simply observed that it seems some nerds have to hate something in order to love something else, maybe that's true. Star Trek vs. Star Wars hits my mind.
I've never understood the whole Star Trek vs. Star Wars thing. Who says you have to hate one to love the other? I personally love both (except for the horrid prequel trilogy). In fact, I would love to see a movie series based on the Old Republic era.

As long as George Lucas wasn't allowed anywhere near it.
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