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Old May 15 2013, 06:55 AM   #1
dulcimer47
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First Contact alternate timeline

Just wondered if there was a consensus among ENT fans that the events in ST:FC created an alternate timeline, where ENT takes place.

It seems likely to me, it would explain the "modern" look of the NX-01, if Lily's exposure to the Enterprise-E got back to the designers of the NX program.

The episode "Regeneration" seems to indicate this as well, as obviously Cochrane wouldn't have spoke of "cybernetic organisms" if they hadn't traveled back from the 24th century.
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Old May 15 2013, 08:02 AM   #2
T'Girl
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Re: First Contact alternate timeline

If you accept that "the first time through" Cochrane accomplished his first warp flight without the assistance of the Enterprise crew, and without having the majority of his ground crew killed by the Borg, then sure, First Contact definitely represents a change in the timeline.

I think that the reason we didn't see the supposedly extremely important NX-01 on the Enterprise Dee's observation lounge wall was because originally none of the NX's were named Enterprise. The NX-01 was named Enterprise in the alternate timeline because Deanna told Cochrane the name of the ship in orbit that Cochrane saw through the telescope. Cochrane later request that the "warp five ship" be named Enterprise.

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Old May 15 2013, 08:11 AM   #3
R. Star
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Re: First Contact alternate timeline

I think they just had to do a Borg episode and really didn't bother to think about details such as these.
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Old May 15 2013, 08:24 AM   #4
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Re: First Contact alternate timeline

I wouldn't call the NX-01 "modern." It would probably look very antiquated to Kirk & Spock. Aesthetic sensibilities change over time.

I prefer to think of the time travel in First Contact to be the predestination kind of time travel, but even if it is an alternate timeline, it's one that becomes identical to the prime timeline by the events of Pegasus.
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Old May 15 2013, 09:25 AM   #5
King Daniel Into Darkness
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Re: First Contact alternate timeline

dulcimer47 wrote: View Post
Just wondered if there was a consensus among ENT fans that the events in ST:FC created an alternate timeline, where ENT takes place.

It seems likely to me, it would explain the "modern" look of the NX-01, if Lily's exposure to the Enterprise-E got back to the designers of the NX program.
Watch "In a Mirror, Darkly" - the Consistution-class USS Defiant is seen as amazing technology-meets-art by the Mirror!NX-01 crew. Mirror!Trip didn't even know what many of the ships' systems were for. And it smashed through 22nd century Vulcan, Andorian, Tellarite and human ships like paper.
The episode "Regeneration" seems to indicate this as well, as obviously Cochrane wouldn't have spoke of "cybernetic organisms" if they hadn't traveled back from the 24th century.
The events of Star Trek: First Contact are mentioned by Seven of Nine in Voyager's "Year of Hell", which made no sense at the time because those Borg were trapped in the past and never sent their message to the collective. But at the end of "Regeneration", the survivors do get the message out, which explains how Seven knew that the Borg were present during the launch of Cochrane's ship. It actually fixes a continuity error!

Also...
*"These are the Voyages" puts Enterprise in the past of TNG's "The Pegasus"

*"In a Mirror, Darkly" puts Enterprise in the past of TOS' "The Tholian Web" (which is where the USS Defiant vanished from)

The so-called continuity errors, from cloaking devices to phasers, are out-of-universe retcons, IMO. Every Trek does it.
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Old May 15 2013, 11:21 AM   #6
Tiberius
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Re: First Contact alternate timeline

If ENT was in a different timeline caused by the Ent E's interference, wouldn't Picard and Co have returned to that alternate timeline and noticed the difference?

"Hey, what's this about the NX-01 being called the Enterprise? Oh, right. I guess Temporal Investigations will be visiting us soon..."
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Old May 15 2013, 11:27 AM   #7
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Re: First Contact alternate timeline

T'Girl wrote: View Post
If you accept that "the first time through" Cochrane accomplished his first warp flight without the assistance of the Enterprise crew, and without having the majority of his ground crew killed by the Borg, then sure, First Contact definitely represents a change in the timeline.

I think that the reason we didn't see the supposedly extremely important NX-01 on the Enterprise Dee's observation lounge wall was because originally none of the NX's were named Enterprise. The NX-01 was named Enterprise in the alternate timeline because Deanna told Cochrane the name of the ship in orbit that Cochrane saw through the telescope. Cochrane later request that the "warp five ship" be named Enterprise.


I was recently thinking about this. The NX-01 wasn't named Enterprise in the unaltered timeline, but after Cochrane interacted with the ENT-E crew and Deanna named dropped their ship. Cochrane who worked on the NX project probably pushed for the NX-01 to be called Enterprise.

Tiberius wrote: View Post
If ENT was in a different timeline caused by the Ent E's interference, wouldn't Picard and Co have returned to that alternate timeline and noticed the difference?


"Hey, what's this about the NX-01 being called the Enterprise? *Oh, right. *I guess Temporal Investigations will be visiting us soon..."
See my question number 4 below. But yes the effects of the Borg and FC would leave the ENT-E with the only complete, unaltered history logs prior to the incursion, the scans and visual recording of Borg assimilated Earth 2063-2373, and what all the ENT-E crew did while in the year 2063. We can be sure when delivering their reports to Starfleet, the Temporal Investigations branch was also there to shake down the crew for info about what happened and changed. Similar to what they did in DS9 Trials and Tirbblations with Sisko.


As for the Borg and unaltered timeline. I posted recently in another thread about their effect on history. I'll copy and paste here

**
What happens in First Contact is the Borg travel back to 2063 Earth and rewrite history in their own image. We the audience and the crew of the ENT-E saw this from the 24th century. Because the ENT-E was displaced temporally by the wake they were in they existed outside of time and were shielded from the effects. The was no first contact and the Federation and Star Fleet never existed.

So
Unaltered Timeline: 2063-TOS-TUC-TNG-DS9-GEN-VOY-2373 :Erased by Borg's Time Incursion to the past

Borg Timeline of Earth 2063-2373 now established.

The ENT-E crew went back to CORRECT what had been corrupted, and they succeeded. However they failed to prevent several people from dying and had to contaminate the time stream and give assistance and future knowledge to Zefram Cochrane and Lily Sloane. Not to trivialize these details but what was PARAMOUNT about this was ensuring Earth and the Vulcans made contact. This was the broad stokes of history that NEEDED to happen in order to ensure the Federations future.

New timeline: 2063(altered)-ENT-Regeneration-TOS-TUC-TNG-DS9-GEN-VOY-2373(altered).



However this is where the predestination/pogo paradox gets thrown around and it's incorrect. In VOY Year of Hell part 1 7 of 9 states the Borg were present at the events of First Contact. In VOY Relativity she states that the Borg traveled back in time where they SUCEEDED in conquering Earth, but that led the Enterprise following them back and changing the course of events. To which Temporal Star Fleet guy says "in a way the Federation owes it's existence to the Borg". Temporal Starfleet guy.. You're fired.


Had the Borg never traveled back to stop Cochrane the flght would've been a success regardless and the Federation would've been founded.

Relativity and Year of Hell part 1 where Seven brings up the Borg and FC are goofs on the sides of the writers. They were trying to be clever and witty but overlooked what was actually shown in FC. Ask yourself this:

1. How does Seven know the Borg succeeded? If Earth was assimilated in 2063 through 2373 then how does any record of that remain in the revived timeline where the Borg were defeated by the ENT-E?

2. Same question, How does Seven know the Borg succeeded? It can't be a predestination/pogo paradox that the Borg would both succeed in their goals (assimilating Earth 2063-2373) and fail at them in the same span of time 2063-2373.

3. Since the Borg never sent the message to the Delta Quad, thanks to Picard and Worf blowing up the disk. The DQ Borg had no knowledge there were Borg on Earth.

4. The ENT-E crew had the historical logs and the time frame of events of what should've happened down to the letter. The basically steered history back on track. However several people did die and Cocharane, Lily and their colleagues had all seen or at least interacted with the ENT-E crew. All of this is bound to leave impressions and change history.

There was only one timeline which kept getting changed by different parties. We see a similar event occur during ENT with the Xindi Sphere Builders and other Temporal Cold War factions. Everyone trying to supplant the past that exists in order to rewrite the future in their favor.
**

Last edited by AllStarEntprise; May 15 2013 at 01:19 PM.
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Old May 15 2013, 12:33 PM   #8
Mr. Laser Beam
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Re: First Contact alternate timeline

There was no unaltered timeline. The events of ST:FC were part of history all along. A predestination paradox. It was always supposed to happen. And thus, Enterprise is not an alternate timeline.
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Old May 15 2013, 01:38 PM   #9
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Re: First Contact alternate timeline

I don't get the whole "supposed to happen". Stuff happens, and if you mess with time other stuff happens. Isn't supposed to indicative of destiny and planning?
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Old May 15 2013, 08:12 PM   #10
dulcimer47
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Re: First Contact alternate timeline

T'Girl wrote: View Post
If you accept that "the first time through" Cochrane accomplished his first warp flight without the assistance of the Enterprise crew, and without having the majority of his ground crew killed by the Borg, then sure, First Contact definitely represents a change in the timeline.

I think that the reason we didn't see the supposedly extremely important NX-01 on the Enterprise Dee's observation lounge wall was because originally none of the NX's were named Enterprise. The NX-01 was named Enterprise in the alternate timeline because Deanna told Cochrane the name of the ship in orbit that Cochrane saw through the telescope. Cochrane later request that the "warp five ship" be named Enterprise.

Wouldn't the "first time through" have to have been successful without the Ent-E's assistance? After all, Picard's crew has no record of themselves helping Cochrane and they do have a record of the warp flight being a success.

I like your theory about why the NX-01 isn't on the Ent-D's wall... Maybe the "first time through" equivalent ship was the Yorktown or the Daedalus...

I think the change was a minor one, but it seems to me it is a slightly alternate timeline, unlike J.J.'s movie which is wholly different.
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Old May 15 2013, 08:15 PM   #11
dulcimer47
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Re: First Contact alternate timeline

Third Nacelle wrote: View Post
I wouldn't call the NX-01 "modern." It would probably look very antiquated to Kirk & Spock. Aesthetic sensibilities change over time.

I prefer to think of the time travel in First Contact to be the predestination kind of time travel, but even if it is an alternate timeline, it's one that becomes identical to the prime timeline by the events of Pegasus.
They did a good job on the internal sets of NX-01, making it appear about a century before Kirk & Spock, but the exterior of the ship itself is another story, it's hard to argue that design is 100 years before the 1701 as seen in the original series.

Unless the FC-altered NX-01 timeline led to J.J.'s alternate timeline, in which case J.J.'s 1701 looks more like an evolution of NX-01.
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Old May 15 2013, 11:25 PM   #12
horatio83
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Re: First Contact alternate timeline

Mr. Laser Beam wrote: View Post
There was no unaltered timeline. The events of ST:FC were part of history all along. A predestination paradox. It was always supposed to happen. And thus, Enterprise is not an alternate timeline.
This. Simple works best and I don't see any dramatic benefit in claiming that the events of FC created an alternate timeline.
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Old May 16 2013, 05:22 AM   #13
T'Pol's Love Slave
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Re: First Contact alternate timeline

Let us not forget Riker quoting Cochrane to Cochrane. "You don't have to be a great man. Just be a man". Sounds like a predestination paradox to me.
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Old May 16 2013, 05:27 AM   #14
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Re: First Contact alternate timeline

T'Pol's Love Slave wrote: View Post
Let us not forget Riker quoting Cochrane to Cochrane. "You don't have to be a great man. Just be a man". Sounds like a predestination paradox to me.
Riker is an idiot. Who is going to say something at the same time after being told they are going to say it? Now maybe he'll be drunk one day and say it because it sounds cool but it will be at a different time and someone who was inspired by his words in the unmeddled timeline will not hear it this time around and they will continue to needlessly strive for greatness until they burn out and fail and the important stuff they would have accomplished being "just a man" will not happen.
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Old May 16 2013, 07:59 AM   #15
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Re: First Contact alternate timeline

T'Pol's Love Slave wrote: View Post
Let us not forget Riker quoting Cochrane to Cochrane. "You don't have to be a great man. Just be a man". Sounds like a predestination paradox to me.
Not really a predestination paradox. More like Riker has future knowledge of Cochrane's speeches and quotes and is reciting them to him. Cochrane's history is taught at Starfleet and to other Federations citizens. It's no different than one of us going back to 1959 and reciting "ask not what your country can do for you — ask what you can do for your country" to JFK before he gave that speech in 1961.

Compare FC to Troubles With Tribbles/Trials and Tribble-ations.

We can watch both separately and we know that Sisko and company were not present the first time. Arne Darvin used the Orb of Time to go back and change history in his favor. Motivated after Capt Kirk ruined his life over a hundred years before. What you have is a series of events that played through unaltered by time travel once, and then played through again with alterations caused by the time travelers.

Trouble With Tribbles


Trials and Tribble-ations


Mirror Mirror


Trials and Tribble-ations


The time the DS9 crew returned to would naturally be different from the one they left because of their interactions on board the Enterprise and Space Station K-7. It's an altered timeline.


With First Contact you have an unaltered timeline erased by the Borg starting in 2063. Zefram Cochrane had to succeed solo the first time because it was something the Borg wanted to change. 2063 wasn't some arbitrary date. The Borg likely downloaded Federation history and chose it because of it's significance. Had the Borg never traveled back in time, the ENT-E crew would've had no reason to assist Cochrane carry out the flight of the Phoenix.

2373 Earth before Borg time travel


2373 Earth after Borg time travel. Complete with an atmosphere containing high concentrations of methane, carbon monoxide, fluorine and a population of nine billion Borg.



2373 Earth after the ENT-E crew repairs the damage and removes the Borg timeline we the audience and the crew of the ENT-E saw at the beginning of the movie from existing.



I keep saying it, a predestination paradox cannot be that a person or group succeeds at something and also fails at it in the same time. Predestination is a circular loop of events. Like the VOY episode "Time and Again". What happens in FC and Trouble with Tribbles and Trials and Tribble-lations is one timeline is constantly being rewritten by a particular party. The later effect of FC we see in ENT Regeneration where Archer has logs from Cochrane about cybernetic creatures from the future and a time travelling ship and crew that came back to stop them. The Borg in Regeneration succeeded in sending a message to the Delta quadrant. Likely telling them what happened in FC. If FC was a casualty loop, then why would the Borg repeat an attempt to assmilate Earth via time travel in 2373 if that had future knowledge that the plan would fail? They wouldn't and as we saw had the cosmic fluke of the ENT-E being trapped in the same temporal vortex not occurred, the Borg's revision of history would've remained with them as conquerors.

See the ENT's temporal cold war and Xindi arc. The Suliban and the Sphere builders were trying to supplant the exisiting timeline and rewrite it in their favor. Notable episodes would be "Shockwave", "Coutdown", "Zero Hour". The Sphere Builders in particular constantly referenced other timelines and how the actions of the Xindi and NX crew were changing them. Despite being sensitive and capable of seeing parallel universes. The Sphere Builders could only effect 1 timeline/reality. They couldn't just go off and live in one of the parallels they knew existed. No, they had to supplant history and destroy any potential union between the Xindi and Federation, because by the 26th century the Sphere Builders would be on the losing side of a war with both.

Last edited by AllStarEntprise; May 16 2013 at 08:10 AM.
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