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Go Back   The Trek BBS > Star Trek Movies > Star Trek Movies XI+

Star Trek Movies XI+ Discuss J.J. Abrams' rebooted Star Trek here.

View Poll Results: Grade the movie...
A+ 144 19.20%
A 161 21.47%
A- 101 13.47%
B+ 83 11.07%
B 59 7.87%
B- 27 3.60%
C+ 40 5.33%
C 38 5.07%
C- 25 3.33%
D+ 11 1.47%
D 13 1.73%
D- 10 1.33%
F 38 5.07%
Voters: 750. You may not vote on this poll

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Old May 15 2013, 05:38 AM   #1936
dulcimer47
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Re: STAR TREK INTO DARKNESS - Grading & Discussion [SPOILERS]

trevanian wrote: View Post
dulcimer47 wrote: View Post
I'm usually the last to say anything positive about B&B, but I'll say this for them: they ever resorted to re-making an existing story.

This isn't Star Trek, not even close, and no amount of box office success will change that.

I just hope that someday we will see real Star Trek again.

Fine with all that, but you didn't answer the question this board NEEDS to know ... badly!

What did you think was wrong with Chekov and why did it matter?
I never said anything about Chekov, but in my opinion, he and Simon Pegg/Scotty are the two worst "recreations". My favorite by far is Karl Urban/McCoy, unfortunately, he is being pushed aside by Uhura.
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Old May 15 2013, 05:41 AM   #1937
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Re: STAR TREK INTO DARKNESS - Grading & Discussion [SPOILERS]

I think it's fascinating that the majority of the people in the "F" category show their location as the United States. Funny ain't it?
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Old May 15 2013, 05:55 AM   #1938
dulcimer47
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Re: STAR TREK INTO DARKNESS - Grading & Discussion [SPOILERS]

Phily B wrote: View Post
dulcimer47 wrote: View Post
I'm usually the last to say anything positive about B&B, but I'll say this for them: they ever resorted to re-making an existing story.

This isn't Star Trek, not even close, and no amount of box office success will change that.

I just hope that someday we will see real Star Trek again.
Yeah, they made a bunch of movies that - bar one - are widely panned by critics and fans alike. I mean Trek fans are pretty hardcore, but I'm pretty sure most of us gave up with Nemesis, the only TNG film I didn't see.
It's true, the TNG films weren't the franchise's best run, but FC is really good, and Generations is underrated, remember, Kirk's death was mandated by the studio, it wasn't really a creative decision. However, I'm not going to discount TNG, DS9, and the occasionally good Voyager or Enterprise episode.

I don't think it's a coincidence that Ron Moore was involved with both scripts, he always seemed to balance out any bad elements brought forth by Braga.

Once again, if our barometer for success is going to be box office results and "mainstream critics", then J.J.'s "Star Trek: Transformers" will always be out ahead.

However, as long as the franchise is on this path, we'll never see another "Measure of a Man" or "Inner Light" or "Far Beyond the Stars" again. For that matter, even something like "Time's Arrow" is probably beyond J.J.'s capabilities...

And when it comes to getting "mainstream" popularity - make good stories and that will come - you need to look no further than 1994, when TNG was one of the most popular shows on television, had already spun-off DS9, and was about to spin-off Voyager, and would be in the theaters in the fall with Generations.

TNG didn't need lens flares and explosions, and to me, their successes went far beyond J.J.'s movies.

J.J.'s movies will be lucky to get 4 made, probably 3. TNG's movie franchise, for being a "failure" made 4, and that was after spending 7 years as a critically acclaimed series that spawned an additional 18 years of episodes after it's conclusion.

I'm reminded of what Picard said about the Stargazer in "Relics": "The first vessel that I served on as captain was called Stargazer. It was an overworked, underpowered vessel, always on the verge of flying apart at the seams. In every measurable sense, my Enterprise is far superior. But there are times when I would give almost anything... to command the Stargazer again."

Sure sounds like he's describing "Prime" Star Trek there, doesn't it? The only difference is that J.J. Trek is only better in one measurable sense: box office results.
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Old May 15 2013, 06:02 AM   #1939
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Re: STAR TREK INTO DARKNESS - Grading & Discussion [SPOILERS]

dulcimer47 wrote: View Post
I just hope that someday we will see real Star Trek again.
What is the 'real' Star Trek?

You can see all the Star Trek series showing in most places in the world on TV and cable (except maybe TAS).
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Old May 15 2013, 06:09 AM   #1940
Phily B
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Re: STAR TREK INTO DARKNESS - Grading & Discussion [SPOILERS]

Is this Generations that was so bad that Nimoy didn't want anything to do with it? If STID had half the plot holes that Generations had then this thread would be unbearable.
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Old May 15 2013, 06:16 AM   #1941
dulcimer47
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Re: STAR TREK INTO DARKNESS - Grading & Discussion [SPOILERS]

CommishSleer wrote: View Post
dulcimer47 wrote: View Post
I just hope that someday we will see real Star Trek again.
What is the 'real' Star Trek?

You can see all the Star Trek series showing in most places in the world on TV and cable (except maybe TAS).
"Real" Star Trek is character development and social commentary told through a sci-fi prism, not explosions, CGI, and magic Khan blood.

True, I should have specified new episodes of a show like TNG and/or DS9.

Who was it recently who said that Star Trek is a TV show and best done in that format? Ron Moore I believe.
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Old May 15 2013, 06:20 AM   #1942
dulcimer47
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Re: STAR TREK INTO DARKNESS - Grading & Discussion [SPOILERS]

Phily B wrote: View Post
Is this Generations that was so bad that Nimoy didn't want anything to do with it? If STID had half the plot holes that Generations had then this thread would be unbearable.
Nimoy didn't want anything to do with Generations because there wasn't enough for Spock to do, as it was a TNG movie.

Also, let's remember the vast difference between 1994 and 2009/2013. Nimoy had wanted to distance himself from Spock since the late 70's, and unless there was a significant role for Spock, he wasn't going to do it. I don't fault him for that.

Nimoy in 2009/2013 is whole different story, not to mention that Spock-prime plays a very minor part in J.J.'s movies, and Nimoy has a relationship with J.J. from Fringe.

I don't think whether or not Nimoy is involved with a movie is any measure of that movie's quality.
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Old May 15 2013, 06:26 AM   #1943
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Re: STAR TREK INTO DARKNESS - Grading & Discussion [SPOILERS]

dulcimer47 wrote: View Post
Phily B wrote: View Post
dulcimer47 wrote: View Post
I'm usually the last to say anything positive about B&B, but I'll say this for them: they ever resorted to re-making an existing story.

This isn't Star Trek, not even close, and no amount of box office success will change that.

I just hope that someday we will see real Star Trek again.
Yeah, they made a bunch of movies that - bar one - are widely panned by critics and fans alike. I mean Trek fans are pretty hardcore, but I'm pretty sure most of us gave up with Nemesis, the only TNG film I didn't see.
It's true, the TNG films weren't the franchise's best run, but FC is really good, and Generations is underrated, remember, Kirk's death was mandated by the studio, it wasn't really a creative decision. However, I'm not going to discount TNG, DS9, and the occasionally good Voyager or Enterprise episode.

I don't think it's a coincidence that Ron Moore was involved with both scripts, he always seemed to balance out any bad elements brought forth by Braga.

Once again, if our barometer for success is going to be box office results and "mainstream critics", then J.J.'s "Star Trek: Transformers" will always be out ahead.

However, as long as the franchise is on this path, we'll never see another "Measure of a Man" or "Inner Light" or "Far Beyond the Stars" again. For that matter, even something like "Time's Arrow" is probably beyond J.J.'s capabilities...

And when it comes to getting "mainstream" popularity - make good stories and that will come - you need to look no further than 1994, when TNG was one of the most popular shows on television, had already spun-off DS9, and was about to spin-off Voyager, and would be in the theaters in the fall with Generations.

TNG didn't need lens flares and explosions, and to me, their successes went far beyond J.J.'s movies.

J.J.'s movies will be lucky to get 4 made, probably 3. TNG's movie franchise, for being a "failure" made 4, and that was after spending 7 years as a critically acclaimed series that spawned an additional 18 years of episodes after it's conclusion.

I'm reminded of what Picard said about the Stargazer in "Relics": "The first vessel that I served on as captain was called Stargazer. It was an overworked, underpowered vessel, always on the verge of flying apart at the seams. In every measurable sense, my Enterprise is far superior. But there are times when I would give almost anything... to command the Stargazer again."

Sure sounds like he's describing "Prime" Star Trek there, doesn't it? The only difference is that J.J. Trek is only better in one measurable sense: box office results.
I agree with some of what you've said. Abrams Trek is better, but not only when it comes to box office results. Of course, any other sense of gauging its success would be subjective.

Have you considered that Abrams Trek movies could probably be the best Trek movies ever made? The four TNG films, which I consider as being good, aren't nearly in the same league. And comparing a TV show to a movie doesn't work even if it is the same franchise. They're different mediums catering to different audiences. Who knows, if Abrams Trek spins off into a TV show, we could see another Measure of a Man type episode, but perhaps with some more pizzazz.

I think Abrams Trek has struck a balance among wanting to have high box office results, having core Trek material for the long time fan, new ideas and visuals, half-decent plot, and character moments. And all in just 2 hours (or 4 if you take both movies), as opposed to hundreds of hours available in a TV show.

YMMV.
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Old May 15 2013, 06:30 AM   #1944
Phily B
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Re: STAR TREK INTO DARKNESS - Grading & Discussion [SPOILERS]

dulcimer47 wrote: View Post
Phily B wrote: View Post
Is this Generations that was so bad that Nimoy didn't want anything to do with it? If STID had half the plot holes that Generations had then this thread would be unbearable.
Nimoy didn't want anything to do with Generations because there wasn't enough for Spock to do, as it was a TNG movie.

Also, let's remember the vast difference between 1994 and 2009/2013. Nimoy had wanted to distance himself from Spock since the late 70's, and unless there was a significant role for Spock, he wasn't going to do it. I don't fault him for that.

Nimoy in 2009/2013 is whole different story, not to mention that Spock-prime plays a very minor part in J.J.'s movies, and Nimoy has a relationship with J.J. from Fringe.

I don't think whether or not Nimoy is involved with a movie is any measure of that movie's quality.
It's also because it was a nonsensical and terrible script that only two other TOS cast members came back. Generations is terrible on every single level and it doesn't have the excuse of being a light reboot. Imagine the rage on this forum if the plot was Generations level and they destroyed a beloved ship cause they wanted a movie ship
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Old May 15 2013, 06:32 AM   #1945
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Re: STAR TREK INTO DARKNESS - Grading & Discussion [SPOILERS]

Kruezerman wrote: View Post
I think it's fascinating that the majority of the people in the "F" category show their location as the United States. Funny ain't it?
I've asked you more than once before to refrain from making digs at other fans or groups of fans. Now knock it off.
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Old May 15 2013, 06:36 AM   #1946
dulcimer47
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Re: STAR TREK INTO DARKNESS - Grading & Discussion [SPOILERS]

rahullak wrote: View Post
dulcimer47 wrote: View Post
Phily B wrote: View Post

Yeah, they made a bunch of movies that - bar one - are widely panned by critics and fans alike. I mean Trek fans are pretty hardcore, but I'm pretty sure most of us gave up with Nemesis, the only TNG film I didn't see.
It's true, the TNG films weren't the franchise's best run, but FC is really good, and Generations is underrated, remember, Kirk's death was mandated by the studio, it wasn't really a creative decision. However, I'm not going to discount TNG, DS9, and the occasionally good Voyager or Enterprise episode.

I don't think it's a coincidence that Ron Moore was involved with both scripts, he always seemed to balance out any bad elements brought forth by Braga.

Once again, if our barometer for success is going to be box office results and "mainstream critics", then J.J.'s "Star Trek: Transformers" will always be out ahead.

However, as long as the franchise is on this path, we'll never see another "Measure of a Man" or "Inner Light" or "Far Beyond the Stars" again. For that matter, even something like "Time's Arrow" is probably beyond J.J.'s capabilities...

And when it comes to getting "mainstream" popularity - make good stories and that will come - you need to look no further than 1994, when TNG was one of the most popular shows on television, had already spun-off DS9, and was about to spin-off Voyager, and would be in the theaters in the fall with Generations.

TNG didn't need lens flares and explosions, and to me, their successes went far beyond J.J.'s movies.

J.J.'s movies will be lucky to get 4 made, probably 3. TNG's movie franchise, for being a "failure" made 4, and that was after spending 7 years as a critically acclaimed series that spawned an additional 18 years of episodes after it's conclusion.

I'm reminded of what Picard said about the Stargazer in "Relics": "The first vessel that I served on as captain was called Stargazer. It was an overworked, underpowered vessel, always on the verge of flying apart at the seams. In every measurable sense, my Enterprise is far superior. But there are times when I would give almost anything... to command the Stargazer again."

Sure sounds like he's describing "Prime" Star Trek there, doesn't it? The only difference is that J.J. Trek is only better in one measurable sense: box office results.
I agree with some of what you've said. Abrams Trek is better, but not only when it comes to box office results. Of course, any other sense of gauging its success would be subjective.

Have you considered that Abrams Trek movies could probably be the best Trek movies ever made? The four TNG films, which I consider as being good, aren't nearly in the same league. And comparing a TV show to a movie doesn't work even if it is the same franchise. They're different mediums catering to different audiences. Who knows, if Abrams Trek spins off into a TV show, we could see another Measure of a Man type episode, but perhaps with some more pizzazz.

I think Abrams Trek has struck a balance among wanting to have high box office results, having core Trek material for the long time fan, new ideas and visuals, half-decent plot, and character moments. And all in just 2 hours (or 4 if you take both movies), as opposed to hundreds of hours available in a TV show.

YMMV.
Actually, when J.J. Trek was announced, I was ecstatic. I thought we were going to get "Star Trek: Lost". Instead, we got "Star Trek: Transformers".

I'm all for more "pizzazz", as long as there is a good story and good characters behind it. Unfortunately, in my opinion, there isn't.

I suppose it succeeded in making Trek a viable movie franchise again, at least according to what passes for viability in 2013, but I just lament the lack of any kind of substance.
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Old May 15 2013, 07:27 AM   #1947
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Re: STAR TREK INTO DARKNESS - Grading & Discussion [SPOILERS]

I saw ST:XII a second time today and I want to say.. ALL IS FORGIVEN.

I'm ready for the love train.
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Old May 15 2013, 07:52 AM   #1948
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Re: STAR TREK INTO DARKNESS - Grading & Discussion [SPOILERS]

Carcazoid wrote: View Post
Stop with the snobby attitude for crying out loud. Bringing in new fans only makes Trek stronger.
Nothing new there, sadly. As I mentioned before, I entered Star Trek fandom in early 1980, with only ST:TMP below my belt - and hit the snobby fan demographic early on. That if only I were a "true fan", whatever that means, I would see their point that TMP was a terrible movie that threatened to kill Star Trek forever by letting in all these "newbies".

By December 1983, I was the club's president, and we grew from 200 to over 1000 members over the next decade. The committee was then about one third original fans and two thirds "newbies" (usually the ones with fresh ideas on fundraising and meeting coordination). Many of the older fans just faded away, more were chased away by ST II "going all military" on us, and lots more ran screaming after ST IV, which was branded by some as "the dumbing down of the franchise". And any of us around in early 1987 should still recall the intense disdain for TNG from some fan quarters, before it even aired!

So the films that polarized the membership would seem to be TMP, ST II, ST IV - and JJ's two films. Coincidentally, all were excellent money earners for Paramount. And those five movies all brought in lots of new fans to keep the franchise alive.

TMP and JJ's films are still my favourite ST movies.

dulcimer47 wrote: View Post
I just lament the lack of any kind of substance.
I've always found the "substance" in Star Trek is often a deliberate series of little gaps that are meant to be filled in by the fans (and the tie-in novelists). The best chemistry between characters is often when no words are exchanged.

teacake wrote: View Post
I saw ST:XII a second time today and I want to say.. ALL IS FORGIVEN.

I'm ready for the love train.
Hahaha. Glad to say "I told you so."
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Old May 15 2013, 08:03 AM   #1949
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Re: STAR TREK INTO DARKNESS - Grading & Discussion [SPOILERS]

teacake wrote: View Post
I saw ST:XII a second time today and I want to say.. ALL IS FORGIVEN.

I'm ready for the love train.
Had us worried there for a while...
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Old May 15 2013, 08:09 AM   #1950
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Re: STAR TREK INTO DARKNESS - Grading & Discussion [SPOILERS]

dulcimer47 wrote: View Post
I'm usually the last to say anything positive about B&B, but I'll say this for them: they ever resorted to re-making an existing story.
Huh?

The number of times the USS Voyager got duplicated, or someone from the ship got sent back in a time loop, in the first season drove me crazy! There are many VOY episodes that feel like remakes of previous episodes from other ST series, including the reverse-aging episode of TAS.
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