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Go Back   The Trek BBS > Star Trek Movies > Star Trek Movies XI+

Star Trek Movies XI+ Discuss J.J. Abrams' rebooted Star Trek here.

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Old May 14 2013, 10:29 AM   #76
Xavier_Storma
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Re: All right, all you JJ-haters! Put your money where your mouth is!

Turd Ferguson wrote: View Post
Paramount has just hired you, due to your intense hatred of lens flares and JJ Abrams decision making, to replace JJ Abrams as head of the new Star Trek to follow Into Darkness.

You are free to reboot the series with whomever you feel is fit to play the roles of Kirk and Spock, or you can stick with Chris Pine and Zachary Quinto. But, Paramount wants you to post your casting ideas along with your plot synopsis.

Let's hear it! You're sick of Abrams, Kurtzman, Orci and Lindelof, let's hear YOUR ideas! You claim you can do better, Paramount is listening! Don't be shy!
After having seen INTO DARKNESS, I see the problem now. It is not JJ Abrams. In fact cinematography, direction, set design, effects etc look superb. Never looked better... no, it is the authors. Orci and Kurtzman are simply unable to write an original story... at least to the end.
The first hour of the film works and you are about to forgive stupid plotholes and logical mistakes simply because it is so dense... sadly, after 60 minutes the film simply copys TWOK and that is where it falls apart.

I would defineatly keep Abrams (lense flares decreased in this film, the camera works now really good, seems they cured the cameraman's Parkinson since 2009, or at least treated it accordingly (since you cannot cure that disease).

Throw out Orci and Kurtzman and get someone of the calliber of the Nolan brothers to write TREK 3, and everyone will be happy.

In fact if it was not for the second half of the film, I would really rate it as a good solid Sci-Fi Action film... and I really hated almost everything about TREK 09.

But there is hope again...

I would go the route of a game like "Judgment Rites" or "A Final Unity".

Add an archeological adventure for example, a race towards a huge discovery, a competition with Klingons for example, where the audience first thinks they are the bad guys and then in the end, let them work together with Kirk and his crew to solve a problem (in best TREK tradition).
There does not need to be an essential bad guy in the film. Mix it with cool locations (XI and ID have them already), add some action scenes (Kirk and Spck getting intel from hostile party, having a spy on board or something) and voila.

Just avoid: Time travel, remakes of iconic scenes and plot holes. It ain't that hard. If I had more time I would sit down and write a draft or two.
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Last edited by Xavier_Storma; May 14 2013 at 11:02 AM.
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Old May 14 2013, 02:05 PM   #77
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Re: All right, all you JJ-haters! Put your money where your mouth is!

Hober Mallow wrote: View Post
one is still free to criticize.
Truth. Some TBBS members seem determined to stamp out any criticism of NuTrek.

I just wish Star Trek would aim for something a little higher than big dumb flashy Hollywood shoot-'em-ups. The dumbing down of Star Trek happened long before JJ Abrams took the reigns, but that doesn't mean Abrams shouldn't strive for something better.
Well said. The production has "Star Trek" slapped on it, but that is where the similarities end, as the heart of the ST message has been replaced by the immature, flash over substance sci-fi sledgehammered into the culture by George Lucas and in more recent years, Michael Bay.

What I'd like to see from Star Trek would be a reboot which is honest about being a reboot -- no silly time travel plot to try and justify its existence. Just reboot the show and come up with more imaginative stories.
It seems clear that imaginative stories--once the very thing ST used to be famous for--is not the priority, but spectacle, and looking more like something Tom Cruise or Will Smith would head up.
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Old May 14 2013, 02:19 PM   #78
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Re: All right, all you JJ-haters! Put your money where your mouth is!

To be fair Trek movies always lean more towards action and adventure than the average television story but I totally agree that the current movies lean too far into this direction.
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Old May 14 2013, 03:01 PM   #79
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Re: All right, all you JJ-haters! Put your money where your mouth is!

I'd also keep Abrams to direct, but throw out Orci and Kurtzman. They should have at least put someone smart next to them, an experienced Trek writer for example. Someone to tell them "you're lazy, we'll need to come up with a proper solution to this problem".

As for story... I'd keep the actors. Movie starts with your typical action scene, explosions and what not. Set pieces blow up, the whole nine yards. Then after the battle ends (maybe with the death of all heroes) the holodeck gets deactivated. ST11 and 12 have happened... on the holodeck. Some sort of holonovel/Starfleet training exercise. The characters, as we met them, sort of are real, just the names are different. It's a new crew. They are being congratulated for having successfully beta tested a new way of final exams from Starfleet Academy, a 1-2 month holodeck simulation meant to test cadets to their fullest.

They go to their mission of doing cartography or whatever. Cut. We're introduced to the villain of the week (this could happen as the first scene too, or it could be left out until a flashback/flashforward happens). Again, shit blows up, alien planet fights for survival, is being destroyed by someone evil. Only one ship survives, captained by the villain. It's some time in the future. Captain is in fact a scientist who was doing temporal research (yes, I'm recycling a Voyager plot now...) who just wants to restore his planet, and has found out that if "Kirk" hadn't been born, his grand grand grand son wouldn't have destroyed his home world for greed and stuff.

So he decides to go back in time to kill "Kirk". Fighting ensues (that's what people want...) with the "Enterprise" crew being confused what the heck is going on but defending themselves, luckily they start to communicate with "Kirk" giving a rousing speech with lots of wild gesturing, and somehow they figure out a way to end the war, maybe by castrating "Kirk".

Or perhaps it was an idea that "Kirk" had, a movement that "Kirk" started, a philosophy, that ultimately went wrong and led to the destruction of countless worlds. Maybe it was a book that he will write, maybe it is his way of life, have to figure out something plausible that can't be easily undone by a vow (or maybe the villain captain wouldn't accept it). So to stop it, "Kirk" has to die. Maybe the baddies give the Enterprise crew one hour to say goodbye/surrender "Kirk" for execution, and "Kirk" is considering and pondering if what the other side wants isn't sensible. Can he be held responsible for an idea that he sparked? Does it even matter? Doesn't the lives of many outweight one live? The Enterprise crew could come up with a flaw in the enemies shields, making it possible to destroy their vessel. But "Kirk" says no.

Basically it's the classic would you kill Hitler's father story/would Hitler's father kill himself/his child had he known what monster he created. Not exactly original, I admit, but at least there is something to think about.

In terms of structure (and rethinking the mess above) I would have the introduction done in the first 15 minutes, with the revelation it was just a "dream". Then soon thereafter the fighting begins, "Enterprise" is basically lost, all that still works (barely) is the life support. But the bad guys think it's only fair to let the Enterprise crew know why they were attacked, and to give them the chance of survival. After all they only want "Kirk". The pondering part, with different parts of the crew working on different solutions in parallel could set in after maybe one hour, and take maybe 30-45 minutes. It could be done quite tense with ship systems failing and the ultimatum looming over them. And then the conclusion, which the enemy may or may not accept.

That would be the basic 5 minutes of thinking + then some typing and brainstorming to come up with plot. Could probably be fleshed out in the hands of a good writer (which I am most certainly not).

Or maybe just do a NC-17 movie set on Risa.

As for the thing that you'd have to dumb down a movie to get popular/good actors? Not really. Either a big paycheck, or do a project that is challenging, cool and interesting. Brilliant actors are willing to work for next to nothing, if it is NOT a stupid lowest common denominator movie. Things they are really interested in (IMHO those really good actors tend to be rather smart too). Btw., Vin Diesel? His first movie was written, directed, scored and produced by him, it got played at Cannes and impressed Spielberg so much that he wrote Diesel a role in Saving Private Ryan. Sadly Vin Diesel is typecast for a certain kind of action role these days, but hopefully one day he gets the chance to show off what he really can do.

Last edited by kadajawi; May 14 2013 at 03:22 PM.
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Old May 14 2013, 06:16 PM   #80
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Re: All right, all you JJ-haters! Put your money where your mouth is!

kadajawi wrote: View Post
...the holodeck...
Next!!!
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Old May 14 2013, 07:22 PM   #81
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Re: All right, all you JJ-haters! Put your money where your mouth is!

kadajawi wrote: View Post
*stuff*
Dafuq did I just read.
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Old May 14 2013, 07:22 PM   #82
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Re: All right, all you JJ-haters! Put your money where your mouth is!

TREK_GOD_1 wrote: View Post
Hober Mallow wrote: View Post
one is still free to criticize.
Truth. Some TBBS members seem determined to stamp out any criticism of NuTrek.
Well, you won't find that going on here - criticize away.

Oh, and let's try to avoid making generalizations concerning what "some TBBS members" do. It's outside the focus of the discussion, it's unnecessary, and it's not particularly helpful besides.

Edit:

Kruezerman wrote: View Post
kadajawi wrote: View Post
*stuff*
Dafuq did I just read.
Eh, that's not an especially helpful sort of comment, either.
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Old May 15 2013, 05:36 AM   #83
trevanian
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Re: All right, all you JJ-haters! Put your money where your mouth is!

M'Sharak wrote: View Post
TREK_GOD_1 wrote: View Post
Hober Mallow wrote: View Post
one is still free to criticize.
Truth. Some TBBS members seem determined to stamp out any criticism of NuTrek.
Well, you won't find that going on here - criticize away.

Oh, and let's try to avoid making generalizations concerning what "some TBBS members" do. It's outside the focus of the discussion, it's unnecessary, and it's not particularly helpful besides.
It certainly affects how the board is perceived, to the point of actually putting a few skids in to impede growth, since at least some folks elsewhere don't see the point of writing an intelligent dissenting post anywhere on trekbbs because of the 'swarm! swarm!' approach of those who 'seem determined to stamp out any criticism of NuTrek.'

Is it that the remark in question was a generalization that is at issue? Or is this more about the content of the remark? Or is asking for clarification on this also 'not particularly helpful?'
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Old May 15 2013, 06:15 AM   #84
M'Sharak
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Re: All right, all you JJ-haters! Put your money where your mouth is!

trevanian wrote: View Post

Is it that the remark in question was a generalization that is at issue? Or is this more about the content of the remark? Or is asking for clarification on this also 'not particularly helpful?'
Talking about the movie (whether in praise or in criticism): fine, OK, good. It's why this forum is here.

Making insinuations about other posters (whether said posters are supportive of or opposed to nuTrek): not fine, not OK, not good. To be avoided, even in such vague terms as "some TBBS members".

This:
TREK_GOD_1 wrote: View Post

Some TBBS members seem determined to stamp out any criticism of NuTrek.
... has no place in discussion here - its only purpose is to bait. I don't want to see it again.
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Old May 15 2013, 08:20 AM   #85
Xavier_Storma
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Re: All right, all you JJ-haters! Put your money where your mouth is!

M'Sharak wrote: View Post
trevanian wrote: View Post

Is it that the remark in question was a generalization that is at issue? Or is this more about the content of the remark? Or is asking for clarification on this also 'not particularly helpful?'
Talking about the movie (whether in praise or in criticism): fine, OK, good. It's why this forum is here.

Making insinuations about other posters (whether said posters are supportive of or opposed to nuTrek): not fine, not OK, not good. To be avoided, even in such vague terms as "some TBBS members".
Agreed. Let's just agree to disagree. Both opinions are valid.
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Old May 15 2013, 05:19 PM   #86
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Re: All right, all you JJ-haters! Put your money where your mouth is!

Xavier_Storma wrote: View Post
M'Sharak wrote: View Post
trevanian wrote: View Post

Is it that the remark in question was a generalization that is at issue? Or is this more about the content of the remark? Or is asking for clarification on this also 'not particularly helpful?'
Talking about the movie (whether in praise or in criticism): fine, OK, good. It's why this forum is here.

Making insinuations about other posters (whether said posters are supportive of or opposed to nuTrek): not fine, not OK, not good. To be avoided, even in such vague terms as "some TBBS members".
Agreed. Let's just agree to disagree. Both opinions are valid.
Cool, just wanted someplace we could all go for ready-reference the next time somebody says this kind of thing aiming in this direction OR the other direction. In theory, this should solve a variety of long-standing ills, if upheld.
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Old May 16 2013, 05:36 AM   #87
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Re: All right, all you JJ-haters! Put your money where your mouth is!

Abrams Direction is fine, the cast is also fine, he needs to get a new team of writers on board because Into Darkness is a mess.
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Old May 16 2013, 10:02 AM   #88
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Re: All right, all you JJ-haters! Put your money where your mouth is!

A problem I have with this movie and, with certain episodes, of Star Trek is this -

I am living in the present. I know that our government has taken preventive steps to protecting itself from attack. I know that they can't protect everything - there are breaches. However, these breaches are rare, and the government does take partial to full steps to prevent these occurrences from happening again. I am assuming, as a student of history, that a government in the twenty-fourth century will be far more advanced than us in the identifying and quarantining of threats. So, when I see an attack on a government building, I am in a state of disbelief. I know that this wouldn't happen, especially after an attack has already happen. The conference would be held in a secured facility - out of mind, out of sight of the public - and that Khan wouldn't be simply able to fly a gunship to the conference room and kill people. When I see an event in a movie, and it makes it appear that the people are less advanced than us, and this is allegedly the future, I feel the film has lost some of its credibility with me.

I believe that if you are to write a film set in the future, show that the people have actually precedent behind them and that they are working from centuries of acquired knowledge.

If you are going to show Khan killing people, then do it intelligently. First off, people like Khan wouldn't get themselves dirty. They would hold themselves above the fray, and have others do the work for him. (The father destroying the complex has some verisimilitude.) Leaders who get dirty betray weakness. Secondly, show the process by which Khan's minions overcome Starfleet's defenses and are able to attack the conference. Thirdly, make the attack be less random, and more focused. Fourthly, illustrate how Starfleet has learned who was behind the attack. If you are involving an intelligence group, use that to some advantage. Have them either involved with the attack, or have them be the victims of the attack.
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Old May 16 2013, 10:12 AM   #89
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Re: All right, all you JJ-haters! Put your money where your mouth is!

throwback wrote: View Post
A problem I have with this movie and, with certain episodes, of Star Trek is this -

I am living in the present. I know that our government has taken preventive steps to protecting itself from attack. I know that they can't protect everything - there are breaches. However, these breaches are rare, and the government does take partial to full steps to prevent these occurrences from happening again. I am assuming, as a student of history, that a government in the twenty-fourth century will be far more advanced than us in the identifying and quarantining of threats. So, when I see an attack on a government building, I am in a state of disbelief. I know that this wouldn't happen, especially after an attack has already happen. The conference would be held in a secured facility - out of mind, out of sight of the public - and that Khan wouldn't be simply able to fly a gunship to the conference room and kill people. When I see an event in a movie, and it makes it appear that the people are less advanced than us, and this is allegedly the future, I feel the film has lost some of its credibility with me.

I believe that if you are to write a film set in the future, show that the people have actually precedent behind them and that they are working from centuries of acquired knowledge.

If you are going to show Khan killing people, then do it intelligently. First off, people like Khan wouldn't get themselves dirty. They would hold themselves above the fray, and have others do the work for him. (The father destroying the complex has some verisimilitude.) Leaders who get dirty betray weakness. Secondly, show the process by which Khan's minions overcome Starfleet's defenses and are able to attack the conference. Thirdly, make the attack be less random, and more focused. Fourthly, illustrate how Starfleet has learned who was behind the attack. If you are involving an intelligence group, use that to some advantage. Have them either involved with the attack, or have them be the victims of the attack.
I'm not criticizing, just making a quick point: This issue (a gunship near a secure facility) is addressed in the movie. I won't say what, because I don't know if spoilers are allowed here, but it is addressed, and quite handily.
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Old May 16 2013, 10:31 AM   #90
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Re: All right, all you JJ-haters! Put your money where your mouth is!

What is a secured facility? Here is an example from the 21st century.

The President Emergency Operations Center (PEOC)

The PEOC was built six stories below ground under the East Wing [ed. of the White House] to provide the President with a secure meeting place in the event of an emergency. Access to the PEOC is by an elevator located behind multiple vault-type doors with biometric access control systems.
http://whitehouse.gov1.info/tunnel/

As a writer, I would start with this as a basis for the room where the meeting would be held. I would do other research and consult experts, and, then, I would envision how an attack might proceed.
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