RSS iconTwitter iconFacebook icon

The Trek BBS title image

The Trek BBS statistics

Threads: 135,864
Posts: 5,221,606
Members: 24,232
Currently online: 657
Newest member: glasssplashback

TrekToday headlines

Takei To Receive Award
By: T'Bonz on Apr 23

Yelchin In New Comedy
By: T'Bonz on Apr 23

U.S. Rights For Pegg Comedy Secured
By: T'Bonz on Apr 23

Shatner: Aging and Work
By: T'Bonz on Apr 23

Kurtzman And Orci Go Solo
By: T'Bonz on Apr 22

Star Trek #32 Preview
By: T'Bonz on Apr 22

Voyager Bridge Via The Oculus Rift
By: T'Bonz on Apr 21

Miles Away Glyph Award Nominations
By: T'Bonz on Apr 21

Q Meets NuTrek Crew
By: T'Bonz on Apr 18

Pine In Talks For Drama
By: T'Bonz on Apr 18


Welcome! The Trek BBS is the number one place to chat about Star Trek with like-minded fans. Please login to see our full range of forums as well as the ability to send and receive private messages, track your favourite topics and of course join in the discussions.

If you are a new visitor, join us for free. If you are an existing member please login below. Note: for members who joined under our old messageboard system, please login with your display name not your login name.


Go Back   The Trek BBS > Welcome to the Trek BBS! > General Trek Discussion

General Trek Discussion Trek TV and cinema subjects not related to any specific series or movie.

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old May 15 2013, 05:33 AM   #16
Mr. Laser Beam
Fleet Admiral
 
Mr. Laser Beam's Avatar
 
Location: The visitor's bullpen
View Mr. Laser Beam's Twitter Profile
Re: Had we ever seen imperial democracies in Trek?

USS Einstein wrote: View Post
The terrorist leader in The High Ground told Beverly Crusher that the Federation continues to trade with his planet's government, despite them fighting a protracted war against his people's continent. This may indicate a certain degree of cynical 'ends justify the means' politics in some circles of the Federation
Or simply that the Rutian planetary government isn't as evil as the Ansata separatists say they are.

We've been conditioned to believe that groups like the Ansata are always right because they're "underdogs" trying to fight against The Man. But what if it's the Ansata who are in the wrong?
__________________
It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion. It is by the beans of Java that thoughts acquire speed, the hands acquire shakes, the shakes become a warning. It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion.
Mr. Laser Beam is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 15 2013, 05:51 AM   #17
CorporalCaptain
Vice Admiral
 
CorporalCaptain's Avatar
 
Location: Kentucky
Re: Had we ever seen imperial democracies in Trek?

Mr. Laser Beam wrote: View Post
USS Einstein wrote: View Post
The terrorist leader in The High Ground told Beverly Crusher that the Federation continues to trade with his planet's government, despite them fighting a protracted war against his people's continent. This may indicate a certain degree of cynical 'ends justify the means' politics in some circles of the Federation
Or simply that the Rutian planetary government isn't as evil as the Ansata separatists say they are.

We've been conditioned to believe that groups like the Ansata are always right because they're "underdogs" trying to fight against The Man. But what if it's the Ansata who are in the wrong?
We aren't provided with enough information really to know, either way.

We witness a bombing and the attempt to blow up the Enterprise, so we know that Finn's group's hands are dirty.

On the other hand, by Alexana's own admission, her predecessor violated the civil rights of suspects, by disappearing them during interrogation. She claimed to have put a stop to it. However, at the episode's end, she summarily executed Finn by shooting him in the back, so it's not like she's really above throwing rights under the bus in the name of expediency, either.

Neither side on the planet exhibited the moral high ground; being ambiguous in order to challenge any and all preconceptions was the episode's point, I think.
__________________
John
CorporalCaptain is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 15 2013, 06:01 AM   #18
The Overlord
Captain
 
Re: Had we ever seen imperial democracies in Trek?

horatio83 wrote: View Post
Lt. Cheka Wey wrote: View Post
A democracy that has colonies where they treat people as subhuman...

A democracy that is waging proxy wars against peacefull nations...

A democracy that gives financial aid to bad dictatorships...

This sort of thing. I cannot recal any from the top of my head. It would be nice to see some more complexity in Star Trek's politics.
I don't think it makes sense to throw these two notions together. If you lead wars and use slaves you are not a democracy. Democracy without the rule of law is mob rule. Not that the mob ever has much interest in waging wars or owning slaves. Such societies are always oligarchic, ordinary folks are not rich enough to own slaves and gotta die in the wars.

Let's take Romulus. The little we saw in Unification indicates that it is an authoritarian society, ordinary people fear those who wield power. In addition to that it is probably very dogmatic like Vulcan society, strong emotions gotta be channeled and the Romulans do it via conquest. If you want your society to be stable the method of channeling of emotions, be it Romulan imperialism or Vulcan orthodoxy, must not be questioned.
Whether the Romulans have a Senate or not matters little. Having formal democratic institutions doesn't make you a democracy yet.
Except you can have an society with an elected government at home and rights for citizens at home and have a imperial policy that doesn't extent that policy to its colonies. The British Empire was a democracy for a lot of its history, the monarchy slowly lost power and the elected Parliament gained more, but they still had an imperial policy. I don't think anyone would say the UK was a dictatorship, but it certainly did not grant the same rights to the people in their colonies as it did people at home.
The Overlord is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 15 2013, 08:28 AM   #19
R. Star
Rear Admiral
 
R. Star's Avatar
 
Location: Shangri-La
Re: Had we ever seen imperial democracies in Trek?

The Overlord wrote: View Post
I don't think anyone would say the UK was a dictatorship, but it certainly did not grant the same rights to the people in their colonies as it did people at home.
Yeah... so long as you're British it's a great deal. Sucks if you're an Indian, Zulu or anyone else in their colonial empire.
__________________
"I was never a Star Trek fan." J.J. Abrams
R. Star is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 15 2013, 11:35 PM   #20
horatio83
Commodore
 
Re: Had we ever seen imperial democracies in Trek?

The Overlord wrote: View Post
horatio83 wrote: View Post
Lt. Cheka Wey wrote: View Post
A democracy that has colonies where they treat people as subhuman...

A democracy that is waging proxy wars against peacefull nations...

A democracy that gives financial aid to bad dictatorships...

This sort of thing. I cannot recal any from the top of my head. It would be nice to see some more complexity in Star Trek's politics.
I don't think it makes sense to throw these two notions together. If you lead wars and use slaves you are not a democracy. Democracy without the rule of law is mob rule. Not that the mob ever has much interest in waging wars or owning slaves. Such societies are always oligarchic, ordinary folks are not rich enough to own slaves and gotta die in the wars.

Let's take Romulus. The little we saw in Unification indicates that it is an authoritarian society, ordinary people fear those who wield power. In addition to that it is probably very dogmatic like Vulcan society, strong emotions gotta be channeled and the Romulans do it via conquest. If you want your society to be stable the method of channeling of emotions, be it Romulan imperialism or Vulcan orthodoxy, must not be questioned.
Whether the Romulans have a Senate or not matters little. Having formal democratic institutions doesn't make you a democracy yet.
Except you can have an society with an elected government at home and rights for citizens at home and have a imperial policy that doesn't extent that policy to its colonies. The British Empire was a democracy for a lot of its history, the monarchy slowly lost power and the elected Parliament gained more, but they still had an imperial policy. I don't think anyone would say the UK was a dictatorship, but it certainly did not grant the same rights to the people in their colonies as it did people at home.
True, in this case it would make sense to call of imperial democracies. Yet in my eyes you are not a proper democracy
if you have democracy (meaning the rule of the people plus the rule of the law plus actual justice as the worst crime in history have always been legal) at home but not abroad. This is of course problematic as it makes the term democracy more of an ideal like justice.
__________________
The illegal we do immediately; the unconstitutional takes a little longer. - former US Secretary of State and unconvicted war criminal Henry Kissinger
horatio83 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 16 2013, 05:48 AM   #21
Lt. Cheka Wey
Commander
 
Re: Had we ever seen imperial democracies in Trek?

Are there some historians that refuse to call Athens a democracy because they owned slaves?
Lt. Cheka Wey is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 16 2013, 09:19 AM   #22
T'Girl
Vice Admiral
 
T'Girl's Avatar
 
Re: Had we ever seen imperial democracies in Trek?

Not being a individual's concept of "proper democracy" does not prevent a government from being a actual democracy in fact. Most democracies today (and through history) impose at least some restrictions upon who is a eligible voter.

In terms of personal perspectives of what constitutes a proper democracy, my personal view that we should have citizen's initiatives at the federal level, as we do at the state level, doesn't prevent America from being a democracy.

The governmental system isn't perfect, and likely it never will be. Still a democracy.

R. Star wrote: View Post
Yeah... so long as you're British it's a great deal. Sucks if you're an Indian, Zulu or anyone else in their colonial empire.
We had it better than some, but it was still necessary for us to show the British to the door.

T'Girl is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 16 2013, 10:03 AM   #23
Gov Kodos
Vice Admiral
 
Gov Kodos's Avatar
 
Location: Gov Kodos Regretably far from Boston
Re: Had we ever seen imperial democracies in Trek?

The Maquis, and Ba'ku probably have a lot to say on the Federation.
__________________
“Your task is not to seek for love, but merely to seek and find all the barriers within yourself that you have built against it.” Rumi
Gov Kodos is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 16 2013, 03:03 PM   #24
MacLeod
Admiral
 
Location: Great Britain
Re: Had we ever seen imperial democracies in Trek?

R. Star wrote: View Post
The Overlord wrote: View Post
I don't think anyone would say the UK was a dictatorship, but it certainly did not grant the same rights to the people in their colonies as it did people at home.
Yeah... so long as you're British it's a great deal. Sucks if you're an Indian, Zulu or anyone else in their colonial empire.
And what about the American Empire, sucked to be a native American, a slave etc...

There are very few countries who can hold their head high when it comes to the mistreatment of another group.
__________________
On the continent of wild endeavour in the mountains of solace and solitude there stood the citadel of the time lords, the oldest and most mighty race in the universe looking down on the galaxies below sworn never to interfere only to watch.
MacLeod is online now   Reply With Quote
Old May 16 2013, 10:26 PM   #25
Sci
Admiral
 
Sci's Avatar
 
Location: State of Maryland/District of Columbia
Re: Had we ever seen imperial democracies in Trek?

Lt. Cheka Wey wrote: View Post
horatio83 wrote: View Post
I don't think it makes sense to throw these two notions together. If you lead wars and use slaves you are not a democracy.
So the US was not a democracy/constitutional republic during the Vietnam War?
Considering that before the Voting Rights Act of 1965, non-whites effectively could not vote, I would argue that the United States only became a democracy after the Vietnam War started. Before that, it was a pseudo-democratic apartheid state.
__________________
This dream must end, this world must know:
We all depend on the beast below.
Sci is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 16 2013, 10:46 PM   #26
MacLeod
Admiral
 
Location: Great Britain
Re: Had we ever seen imperial democracies in Trek?

Yes but didn't the 1870 15th Ammendment grant the rights to all males regardless of colour and background, and the 1920 19th Ammendment grant the right to women? Didn't the 1965 act merely serve to ensure those ammenments were obeyed. Though wasn't disinfranchisement of minoritys more of a problem in southern states who tried to add pre-requisites for pople to be eligable to vote?
__________________
On the continent of wild endeavour in the mountains of solace and solitude there stood the citadel of the time lords, the oldest and most mighty race in the universe looking down on the galaxies below sworn never to interfere only to watch.
MacLeod is online now   Reply With Quote
Old May 16 2013, 11:16 PM   #27
TheRoyalFamily
Commodore
 
TheRoyalFamily's Avatar
 
Re: Had we ever seen imperial democracies in Trek?

T'Girl wrote: View Post
Not being a individual's concept of "proper democracy" does not prevent a government from being a actual democracy in fact. Most democracies today (and through history) impose at least some restrictions upon who is a eligible voter.

In terms of personal perspectives of what constitutes a proper democracy, my personal view that we should have citizen's initiatives at the federal level, as we do at the state level, doesn't prevent America from being a democracy.

The governmental system isn't perfect, and likely it never will be. Still a democracy.
(Not just you, but everyone else)

America, Britain, etc, are not democracies. They are republics. America's system of government in particular was set up to prevent a democracy, as democracies invariably turn to the tyranny by the many. A representative, however, can say no to their constituents, if the representative feels that what the people want is wrong. That may come back to bite them in the rear, true, but often the worst impulses are just that, impulses, and the issue dies down. (Also, it wasn't set up so that representatives make careers as politicians, but that's a whole 'nother issue.)
__________________
You perceive wrongly. I feel unimaginable happiness wasting time talking with women. I'm that type of human.
TheRoyalFamily is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 17 2013, 05:15 AM   #28
Lt. Cheka Wey
Commander
 
Re: Had we ever seen imperial democracies in Trek?

Sci wrote: View Post
Lt. Cheka Wey wrote: View Post
horatio83 wrote: View Post
I don't think it makes sense to throw these two notions together. If you lead wars and use slaves you are not a democracy.
So the US was not a democracy/constitutional republic during the Vietnam War?
Considering that before the Voting Rights Act of 1965, non-whites effectively could not vote, I would argue that the United States only became a democracy after the Vietnam War started. Before that, it was a pseudo-democratic apartheid state.
I was actually making a point about slavery and mandatory military service, but yours is a fine point too.
Lt. Cheka Wey is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 17 2013, 05:52 AM   #29
Sci
Admiral
 
Sci's Avatar
 
Location: State of Maryland/District of Columbia
Re: Had we ever seen imperial democracies in Trek?

MacLeod wrote: View Post
Yes but didn't the 1870 15th Ammendment grant the rights to all males regardless of colour and background, and the 1920 19th Ammendment grant the right to women? Didn't the 1965 act merely serve to ensure those ammenments were obeyed.
And enforcement of those amendments is what makes the United States an actual democracy rather than a pretend democracy. Constitutional amendments granting everyone the right to vote don't make the country a real democracy if those amendments are systematically ignored and violated.

The United States of America did not become a democracy until 1965.

ETA:

TheRoyalFamily wrote: View Post
America, Britain, etc, are not democracies. They are republics. America's system of government in particular was set up to prevent a democracy, as democracies invariably turn to the tyranny by the many.
No, the American government was initially set up to be anti-democratic because the wealthy elite were classist, sexist, racist plutocrats who believed that political power should not go to their inferiors.

But shockingly enough, proclaiming that "all men are created equal" in your national dogma tends to inspire democratic movements. The history of America is the history of democratic reform slowly but steadily gaining traction in our governing structures.

democracies invariably turn to the tyranny by the many
I hear this ridiculous claim every now and then and always wonder where it comes from -- especially since democracy did not exist in any meaningful sense before the mid-20th century. God knows the anti-democratic status of the American republic before the 20th Century -- a government founded on the backs of slaves, predicated on the theft of land from Native American nations and the violent imposition of its imperial and commercial will on the Western hemisphere -- can hardly be said to have been a paragon of freedom.
__________________
This dream must end, this world must know:
We all depend on the beast below.
Sci is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 17 2013, 06:41 PM   #30
J.T.B.
Commodore
 
J.T.B.'s Avatar
 
Re: Had we ever seen imperial democracies in Trek?

TheRoyalFamily wrote: View Post
America, Britain, etc, are not democracies. They are republics.
A republic doesn't have a monarch, that's a defining condition of republics.

America's system of government in particular was set up to prevent a democracy, as democracies invariably turn to the tyranny by the many. A representative, however, can say no to their constituents, if the representative feels that what the people want is wrong. That may come back to bite them in the rear, true, but often the worst impulses are just that, impulses, and the issue dies down.
That's what most of the world knows as "representative democracy." Whether exercised directly or through elected representatives, the authority of the state is vested in the people (dêmos), not in the person of a sovereign.

Sci wrote: View Post
I hear this ridiculous claim every now and then and always wonder where it comes from [...]
IMO it comes from those who worry about political power in the hands of the "wrong sort" of people.
J.T.B. is online now   Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump



All times are GMT +1. The time now is 01:48 PM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.6
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
FireFox 2+ or Internet Explorer 7+ highly recommended.