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Old May 14 2013, 09:51 PM   #241
Gov Kodos
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Re: 5 year old given rifle as gift, kills 2 year old sister

When did Dirty Harry stop being cool?
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Old May 14 2013, 09:53 PM   #242
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Re: 5 year old given rifle as gift, kills 2 year old sister

When he made Pink Cadillac.
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Old May 14 2013, 09:55 PM   #243
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Re: 5 year old given rifle as gift, kills 2 year old sister

^ Oy, I just had a vision of Clint Eastwood singing the song by that name
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Old May 14 2013, 09:56 PM   #244
Gov Kodos
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Re: 5 year old given rifle as gift, kills 2 year old sister

He made a movie with an orangutang, that's gotta count for something?
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Old May 14 2013, 10:10 PM   #245
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Re: 5 year old given rifle as gift, kills 2 year old sister

Gov Kodos wrote: View Post
When did Dirty Harry stop being cool?
Probably about the time he started fighting remote control cars instead of serial killers who look like Garak, dirty cops, hippie revolutionaries, and the mob.



I like the chase just for the novelty factor, but it's hard to look like a badass when you're running from a remote control car, even if it is packed with plastic explosives.
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Old May 14 2013, 10:12 PM   #246
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Re: 5 year old given rifle as gift, kills 2 year old sister

The Dead Pool, right? The one Dirty Harry film I could never get into and find satisfying. Not just because of an idiotic sequence like this (and it is, indeed, quite idiotic) but by the start of the nineties Eastwood was just getting too old to pull of the Harry routine and look like a badass.
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Old May 14 2013, 11:47 PM   #247
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Re: 5 year old given rifle as gift, kills 2 year old sister

This seems like evolution to me.

And God bless America!
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Old May 15 2013, 12:28 AM   #248
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Re: 5 year old given rifle as gift, kills 2 year old sister

Gov Kodos wrote: View Post
When did Dirty Harry stop being cool?
He switched to an auto mag in Sudden Impact.
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Old May 15 2013, 12:55 AM   #249
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Re: 5 year old given rifle as gift, kills 2 year old sister

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gturner wrote: View Post
Our murder rate was much worse when people were still using revolvers.
source?
Any chart ever made of US per capita murder rates. Back around the time of Constitutional ratification, when everyone had to murder with flint-lock muzzle loading pistols, the US homicide rate was about 28 per 100,000. The Colt revolver got that down to about 8 to 12. Switching from revolvers to high-capacity semi-automatics dropped it down to about 5.

The European homicide rate prior to the wide adoption of the flintlock usually ran somewhere between 20 to 100 per 100,000.

Homicide trends in America: 1850-1950 from Carnegie Mellon.

Long term trends in US homicide rates

Long term trends in violent crime, going back to the 1300's.

Of course, perhaps I'm trying to trick people into reading really interesting studies of violent crime trends throughout history. It's a place where a dedicated researcher can actually produce a lot of data because crime has always generated a lot of public records.
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Old May 15 2013, 01:11 AM   #250
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Re: 5 year old given rifle as gift, kills 2 year old sister

A "dedicated" researcher doesn't necessarily mean a good researcher, otherwise they wouldn't mix up correlation with causation. Except if they have an agenda, of course.
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Old May 15 2013, 01:55 AM   #251
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Re: 5 year old given rifle as gift, kills 2 year old sister

Associating weapon type alone with murder rates is not sufficiently indicative of the true cause. There are so many other factors that come into play.

What matters most is what we have at hand today, and that is assault weapons of unparalleled destructive power at affordable prices can be freely purchased by anybody over the age of 18. Nobody needs to own weapons of that magnitude today, analogous to the ownership of a howitzer or missile launcher. These are military grade weapons designed for killing many individuals in a very short period of time.

The people who want to own those weapons just don't want to relinquish the visceral joy they get from using them, just the way some people love to own 500hp street legal cars--all of that horsepower at your fingertips. It's reckless and irresponsible... but no, those against limitation will simply cite "freedom" and ignore "responsibility".
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Old May 15 2013, 03:18 AM   #252
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Re: 5 year old given rifle as gift, kills 2 year old sister

Well, if you know where the affordable assault rifles are, please tell me and we'll split the profits!

Assault rifles are the lowest powered rifles the American military has ever used since the development of the brass cartridge. When introduced they were dismissed as squirrel or poodle guns. Many states don't allow them for deer hunting because they're not deadly enough for a clean kill.

All rifles combined, not just assault rifles, are virtually irrelevant in homicide statistics, and many of those used are by drug cartels (sometimes armed by the branch of the federal government charged with enforcing gun laws). More people are murdered with clubs and hammers than rifles, and about twice as many are killed with bare hands. About four times as many are murdered with sharp pointing things, and five times as many are killed with "other weapons" (probably frozen turkeys). More people are also murdered with shotguns than all rifle types combined.

Since the assault weapon ban expired, the murder rate has dropped by about half. So at best, in a magical world where a rifle never killed another person, the murder rate would drop to 98% of the current value. In reality, it might jump back to 200% of the present rate, because that's where it was during the last data point we had for an assault weapons ban. Yet re-instituting the ban would probably prove irrelevant to murder rates because assault rifles are so irrelevant that the FBI doesn't even bother breaking them out into their own category. The US murder with assault rifles is probably around 0.03 per 100,000. They're not even common in mass murders.

You could instead go after the deadly threat presented by legally owned fully automatic FFL weapons. A lot of my friends own those. Heck, even I have belt fed Browning. Yet the murders committed with those is listed as just 2. Not 2 per 100,000. Not 2 per year. Just two - in the entire database.

In fact, given the overwhelming popularity of assault rifles and their virtual non-use in homicides, it would make more sense to trade everyone a brand new assault rifle for every piece of rusting junk they drag in, like old revolvers, knives, hammers, and frozen turkeys.
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Old May 15 2013, 03:28 AM   #253
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Re: 5 year old given rifle as gift, kills 2 year old sister

gturner wrote: View Post
The European homicide rate prior to the wide adoption of the flintlock usually ran somewhere between 20 to 100 per 100,000.
Accurate statistics on crime and violence in pre-flintlock times are hard to come by.

Semi automatic pistols existed for most of that particular 100 year period. There was also not much in the way of actual law enforcement at the beginning of it.


Of course, perhaps I'm trying to trick people into reading really interesting studies of violent crime trends throughout history. It's a place where a dedicated researcher can actually produce a lot of data because crime has always generated a lot of public records.
Or maybe you are mistaking the statistics of those times for accurate ones.
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Old May 15 2013, 10:08 AM   #254
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Re: 5 year old given rifle as gift, kills 2 year old sister

Of course how come some countries have higher rates of violent crimes and yet fewer murders per capita than the US.

What that could mean is that whilst having more relaxed gun laws, reduces the chances of you being invovled in a violent crime but it also increases your chance of being killed.

Now of course the truth is far more compex than that, some countries have more relaxed gun laws and few murders and/or incidents of violent crime. i.e Switzerland.

So what can the US learn from places that have high gun ownership and low murder rates?

Do those places have training? well in the case of Switzerland they have national service so everyone is trained in use of a gun.

Does having Universal Health Care help, i.e. it ensures people recieve help with any mental health issues?

So using gturners example rate of assult weapons being resposible for 0.03 murders per 100 000, or 0.3 murders per million or around 1 murder per 3 million. Population of US ~300m So around 100 murders less per year hardly an irrelevant stat.
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Old May 15 2013, 12:28 PM   #255
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Re: 5 year old given rifle as gift, kills 2 year old sister

Just because some dangerous item will never amount to a large proportion of killings, doesn't mean it should be legal.

I mean an eccentric millionaire could conceivably own a howitzer, if it was legal. But we probably shouldn't let them.

[edit]I'm interested in the description of assault rifles as Poodle Guns, since it reminds me of the dismissive attitude towards relevance of clip size. Why did anyone bother developing such things, then? Should we go back to giving all our soldiers bolt-action rifles?
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