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Go Back   The Trek BBS > Star Trek TV Series > Star Trek - Original Series

Star Trek - Original Series The one that started it all...

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Old May 14 2013, 03:17 PM   #16
Jonas Grumby
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Re: Amok Time doesn't make sense.

Lt. Uhura-Brown wrote: View Post
A Starfleet captain who knows nothing about the culture of their fellow Federation co-founders is bad enough, but a Starfleet doctor who knows nothing about Vulcan physiology despite having a half-Vulcan crew member is just ridiculous.
Your problem is you're trying to evaluate the original Star Trek in light of what later Treks became rather than by what it actually was.

Later Treks have developed a Trek history that says Vulcans were very involved in Earth's first "baby steps" into space and were ubiquitous (and overbearing) on Earth through much of that time.

In TOS, Spock, as an alien serving on an "Earth ship," was a real rarity, and the Vulcans were a mysterious and rather secretive species.

EDIT: I see Admiral Buzzkill and ssosmcin made the same points while I was composing this post.
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Old May 14 2013, 03:23 PM   #17
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Re: Amok Time doesn't make sense.

Sturgeon also conceived - as the producers of Trek at that time apparently also did - of interstellar travel as a time consuming challenge that only a limited number of vessels could routinely undertake. A privacy-minded species living on a distant planet could very well have been expected to keep a great many secrets.

These days in Trek, Kirk would probably have given Spock the use of a shuttle and Spock would have jetted off to Vulcan on his own for a long weekend while the Enterprise kept its itinerary - and if it wasn't done that way, some fans would want to know why Kirk didn't think of that.
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Old May 14 2013, 04:00 PM   #18
1001001
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Re: Amok Time doesn't make sense.

Admiral Buzzkill wrote: View Post
A privacy-minded species living on a distant planet could very well have been expected to keep a great many secrets.
Like a secret brother, for example....

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Old May 14 2013, 09:18 PM   #19
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Re: Amok Time doesn't make sense.

I still don't buy that the Captain was completely ignorant of the cultural history of the species of one of his own crewmembers. How could he have graduated from Starfleet Academy having failed his Xenoanthropology paper?

Even more so for the Chief Medical Officer not to know about the typical Vulcan life-cycle, regardless of having a half-Vulcan crewmember or not. You don't expect a veterinary surgeon to "not know dogs" for example.

There's suspension of disbelief and there's stretching it to breaking point.
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Old May 14 2013, 09:28 PM   #20
Jonas Grumby
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Re: Amok Time doesn't make sense.

^ In TOS, Vulcan culture would not have been taught at Starfleet Academy because the Vulcans did not discuss such things with "outworlders." Same with Vulcan sexual practices.

(And if you're tempted to counter that, taboo or not, Spock would have easily discussed it with his captain and best friend, then you need to rewatch "Amok Time." )

In TOS, there was not a Vulcan around every corner like there was in some of the spinoffs.
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Last edited by Jonas Grumby; May 15 2013 at 05:12 PM.
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Old May 14 2013, 09:48 PM   #21
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Re: Amok Time doesn't make sense.

We have seen a precedent with Archer. An United Earth Starfleet captain who has no idea about the local interstellar neighborhood.
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Old May 15 2013, 12:42 AM   #22
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Re: Amok Time doesn't make sense.

Lt. Uhura-Brown wrote: View Post
So T'Pring ... was taking a big risk that the victor of Spock's battle didn't decide to drag her along and make her live on the Enterprise anyway.
I think it was pretty obvious that originally Stonn was going to be T'Pring's choice for her champian, selecting Kirk was a spur of the moment decision. For all the reasons she would later mention, plus she wouldn't have to risk her lover.

A Starfleet captain who knows nothing about the culture of their fellow Federation co-founders is bad enough, but a Starfleet doctor who knows nothing about Vulcan physiology despite having a half-Vulcan crew member is just ridiculous.
Nothing is likely an over-statement. If there were 150 members in Picard's time, I personally figure there were something like 35 - 50 in Kirk's time. That Kirk would reasonable have more than a passing knowledge of all of them is unlikely. Even the one that produced his first officer.

And it's also unlikely that McCoy knew "nothing," he just didn't know everything. Which is probably the story with many Federation Member species.

Jonas Grumby wrote: View Post
And if you're tempted to counter that, taboo or not, Spock would have easily discussed it with his captain and best friend, then you need to rewatch "Amok Time."
I have found it odd through the years, that fans seem to assume that as soon as Kirk and McCoy returned to the Enterprise, they immediately spread the intimate details of pon farr to the entire galaxy. As Spock's friends they both would have kept their mouth's shut on the matter, if you choose your friends carefully, you can trust them with your secrets.

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Old May 15 2013, 04:27 AM   #23
Admiral Buzzkill
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Re: Amok Time doesn't make sense.

Lt. Uhura-Brown wrote: View Post
I still don't buy that the Captain was completely ignorant of the cultural history of the species of one of his own crewmembers. How could he have graduated from Starfleet Academy having failed his Xenoanthropology paper?
Again: when "Amok Time" was written, we had no idea how secretive this peculiar and distant species was.
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Old May 15 2013, 04:51 AM   #24
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Re: Amok Time doesn't make sense.

Jonas Grumby wrote: View Post
^ In TOS, Vulcan culture would not have been taught at Starfleet Academy because the Vulcans did not discuss such things with "outworlders." Same with Vulcan sexual practices.

And if you're tempted to counter that, taboo or not, Spock would have easily discussed it with his captain and best friend, then you need to rewatch "Amok Time."

In TOS, there was not a Vulcan around every corner like there was in some of the spinoffs.
Agreed. Not to mention that while T'Pol might qualify as a precedent, in the times of Enterprise, it was even more of an era of "cowboy diplomacy" and who knows WHAT Archer left of out the "official" report. Also, that era also establishes a great distrust between Vulcans and humans, and that undoubtedly continued even into the TOS era. Also, not many Wulcans served alongside humans, and until T'Pol, it was generally assumed Spock was one of the first Vulcans to serve to do so. Even in TOS, for the USS Intrepid was crewed by exclusively Vulcans.

Bottom line: do I buy Kirk not knowing the specifics of Vulcan mating? Totally.
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Old May 15 2013, 05:01 AM   #25
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Re: Amok Time doesn't make sense.

ssosmcin wrote: View Post
True, and remember most times the Enterprise was mentioned as being a "Earth ship." Spock was apparently the only alien on board and there was no indication of "founding members" of the Federation. And Starfleet seemed to be Earth-centric (United Earth Space Probe Agency, for example). Most of what fans know about the Feds and the Vulcans came much later in the sequel series.
Of course in the "Earth Ship" and UESPA episodes there was no Federation. The Enterprise was an Earth ship. Star Trek was still evolving back then.
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Old May 15 2013, 05:16 AM   #26
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Re: Amok Time doesn't make sense.

Lt. Uhura-Brown wrote: View Post
I'm surprised the ritual didn't include a corridor of smashy crushers to traverse...
"Smashy crushers"? Is that a Kiwi thing?
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Old May 15 2013, 05:51 AM   #27
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Re: Amok Time doesn't make sense.

Personally, I thought it stupid for Kirk to get wrapped up in it. Sure, he doesn't want to lose his first officer (thinking Stonn would kill him), but then to have his first officer kill him? Fight to the death. And if he gets lucky and wins? Either way he loses. ILLOGICAL. But McCoy saved the day, slipping him a neural paralyzer. Knocked him out, simulated death. Even still, Kirk could have started to lose consciousness at the wrong moment and then Spock would have decapitated him once his guard was down. And no, the neural paralyzer wasn't a Kirk/Bones collaboration--no dialog to support it. He was on a path of losing either way. Really stupid.

I can't stand this episode and never watch it, although if forced I'd pick this one over "And The Children Shall Lead."
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Old May 15 2013, 06:03 AM   #28
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Re: Amok Time doesn't make sense.

Timo wrote: View Post
It is only in the much later "Cloud Minders" that Spock speaks of a seven-year cycle, but there he merely half-heartedly nods at Droxine's belief that "Vulcans only take a mate every seven years". He doesn't sound as if he were saying he swaps wives every seven years, so this reads more like he's saying he can choose a wife once in his life, with opportunities coming up only every seven years. After getting properly hitched, he's free of the cycle, and probably has very logical sex thrice a day and five times a night throughout the rest of his life, except when he feels like having a chocolate instead.
That's a good idea, but it's contradicted later on (and there's nothing in "Amok Time" to support that, either). At the beginning of the Voyager episode "Alice" (I can't believe that I'm citing Voyager, never mind one of my least favourite episodes - but it happens to be showing on Space as I type this), Paris and Kim are trying to guess Tuvok's age, and Paris makes a reference to Tuvok's 11th pon farr having taken place in 2304 (or something to that effect - I didn't know when the episode started that I'd be posting in this thread, or I would have paid closer attention to the dialogue).

But pon farr might be something that Vulcans who don't have access to logical sex thrice a day and five times a night (nice turn of phrase, BTW ) suffer from, like an addict who can't get a fix for an extended period.

Hm, the ever-logical Vulcans are secret sex addicts...

scotpens wrote: View Post
Lt. Uhura-Brown wrote: View Post
I'm surprised the ritual didn't include a corridor of smashy crushers to traverse...
"Smashy crushers"? Is that a Kiwi thing?
I took it as a Galaxy Quest reference.
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Old May 15 2013, 10:30 PM   #29
Lt. Uhura-Brown
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Re: Amok Time doesn't make sense.

TorontoTrekker wrote: View Post
scotpens wrote: View Post
Lt. Uhura-Brown wrote: View Post
I'm surprised the ritual didn't include a corridor of smashy crushers to traverse...
"Smashy crushers"? Is that a Kiwi thing?
I took it as a Galaxy Quest reference.
Indeed it was.
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Old May 15 2013, 11:00 PM   #30
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Re: Amok Time doesn't make sense.

scotpens wrote: View Post
Lt. Uhura-Brown wrote: View Post
I'm surprised the ritual didn't include a corridor of smashy crushers to traverse...
"Smashy crushers"? Is that a Kiwi thing?
I assumed it meant Crusher's great-great grandma running around smashing stuff.
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