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Old May 13 2013, 07:06 AM   #796
Dream
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Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

Clone army? What the hell is this, Star Wars?!
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Old May 13 2013, 07:17 AM   #797
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Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

It's really no different much from the spacial scission that created two Voyagers a few weeks earlier.

If Janeway had any sense she would have got a massive stockpile of antimatter secreted nearby, and then spent a month going back and forth through the scission until there were thousands of Voyagers and they didn't have to be afraid when they inevitably breached Borg Space.
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Old May 13 2013, 08:41 AM   #798
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Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

Dream wrote: View Post
Clone army? What the hell is this, Star Wars?!
I could actually see Janeway going for that.
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Old May 13 2013, 09:47 AM   #799
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Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

Guy Gardener wrote: View Post
. . . Spock thought it as bad because man never invented warp drive, which is ridiculous, the Nazi's would have had a man on the moon by 1952. Maybe the reason that man never made it out into space in that timeline is that the Aryan Nation in charge was just wonderfully content with the paradise they had created after removing all the unwanted elements form the gene pool.
In the timeline in which Edith Keeler doesn't die in 1930, we only know that the Enterprise (and, by implication, Starfleet) doesn't exist. There's nothing to suggest that man never made it into space or that warp drive was never invented. A Nazi-ruled 23rd-century Earth could well be the seat of an interstellar Empire.
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Old May 13 2013, 01:58 PM   #800
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Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

R. Star wrote: View Post
Dream wrote: View Post
Clone army? What the hell is this, Star Wars?!
I could actually see Janeway going for that.
Yes sir, her army or evil.
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Old May 14 2013, 04:14 AM   #801
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Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

^LOL

If the Dominion had pushed the Federation far enough they would have caved and made clones. Who wouldn't want to pump out endless soldiers that you dumbed down from having any people feelings and needs rather than just have your own people wiped out? The plans were probably already in motion, should it come to that.
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Old May 14 2013, 05:42 AM   #802
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Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

What if there was a means to double, treble or quadruple the IQ of the jem'Hadar?

Some version of what happened to Barclay in TNG The Nth Degree.

Yes, intellect trumps faith.

Although intellect does have trouble against brainwashing since birth.

So you probably have to wipe their memories like in TNG Conundrum first.
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Old May 14 2013, 08:49 PM   #803
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Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

[QUOTE=Sci;8078842][QUOTE=Hartzilla2007;8075635]
Sci wrote: View Post



You've missed the point. A commander can order a fellow officer to do their duty to the crew even if the consequence is death; so Troi can order the chief engineer to repair the warp drive even if it means fatal radiation poisoning. We cannot order the chief engineer to simply be killed.



Don't be absurd. Morality is more important than anything else; the entire point of life is to be moral. And besides, Tuvix was as competent an officer as Tuvok; killing him and replacing him with a copy of Tuvok does not actually benefit ship's efficiency.


No, you missed the point. It was pointed out to Deanna by Riker , very very clearly, that her first duty IS TO THE SHIP. The ship. Deanna's whole trouble with the test was that she was having difficulty sending a person, any person, to their death. Morals have nothing to do sometimes with command decisions when the first duty is to the ship.

To quote Deanna, right after the test, "That's what this is all about wasn't it? To see if I would order someone to their death?"

Riker: "That's right."

Riker said nothing about being prepared for only command decisions regarding Engineering deaths, but to be prepared to make what he called, the "hard choice."

Getting back to Janeway and Tuvix. Janeway had to make a hard choice, and one way or another the "moral" high ground simply wasn't available to her. Morally, like she herself said and Kes agreed with, the captain had a moral obligation to Tuvok's family and Neelix's. She had a command obligation to the ship.

And why is Tuvix morally innocent. It is the moral obligation of any Starfleet officer to sacrifice their lives for another. Tuvix had an opportunity to save the lives of two men. I counter that it was Tuvix who was as morally wrong in this argument on whether he should be separated or not.

Here's another question I'm curious about. Why is Tuvix and Janeway's decision to seperate him any different than Captain Archer's order to use Sim, Trip Tucker's clone, to sacrifice his life in order to save his Chief Engineer? Why do we not have a Archer's Decision To Kill Sim thread? It's the same situation.

And morally, is not the prime directive also an immoral directive? The point being that not all command decisions can have a clear cut moral high ground to live up to?

You must have a...resenment towards Captain Janeway to brand her a murderer when every Captain from Kirk to Archer has made those kind of choices themselves.
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Old May 14 2013, 09:02 PM   #804
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Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

Except strictly speaking Tuvix isn't a member of Starfleet.
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Old May 14 2013, 09:06 PM   #805
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Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

He's a Brundlefly made of two starfleet officers. Separate him.
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Old May 14 2013, 09:31 PM   #806
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Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

MacLeod wrote: View Post
Except strictly speaking Tuvix isn't a member of Starfleet.
Yes he was. He was given the rank of Lieutenant.
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Old May 14 2013, 09:45 PM   #807
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Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

Halliwell wrote: View Post
MacLeod wrote: View Post
Except strictly speaking Tuvix isn't a member of Starfleet.
Yes he was. He was given the rank of Lieutenant.
The Maquis had ranks, too, but they weren't really Starfleet. IIRC, Janeway could only offer them provisional commissions, pending return to the Alpha Quadrant.
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Old May 14 2013, 10:24 PM   #808
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Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

You don't have to and you're not supposed to follow illegal orders.

HoloGeordi just shuffled off to his own death because he could see that it was his duty to say the ship and the other thousand people on board Enterprise.

But he could have just as easily said "Go fuck yourself."

Well, not just as easily, his sacrifice meant that a thousand people would live and that's hard to ignore.

Tuvix's sacrifice meant nothing.

The ship wasn't in danger, he could do both Neelix and Tuvok's jobs.

And he'd win over Kes eventually with persistence.

Were Neelix and Tuvok struggling to get out, or were they happy inside him?

Tuvix claimed that they were happy and his parents.

Seems like a slam dunk.

On the case of Sim.

That guy had a seven DAY life cycle.

He refused to help Trip because he believed that if he missed the window where his parts were ripe for Trip's ailing body, that in the remaining 2 days left to him, that magically Phlox could give him another 40 years.

I forget. Did Phlox find a way to give Sim another 40 years and still cut him up for parts, or did the Doctor run out of time?
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Old May 14 2013, 10:30 PM   #809
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Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

Remember that episode where Tuvok and Neelix both needed kidney transplants, and the only available donor was Crewman Bob? You know, the annoying guy Janeway found creepy.

That sure was awesome of Janeway to make the hard decision and have Bob's kidney's forcibly removed to save Tuvok and Neelix. I really don't know what Bob's problem was. It was so selfish of him to want those kidneys for himself. Janeway should have killed him sooner.

No moral dilemma there. No sir. Janeway sure is smart.
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Old May 14 2013, 10:38 PM   #810
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Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

There should have been some comeback from Tuvok and Neelix after they were separated again.

Like an acknowledgement from them both that Janeway did either the right or wrong thing, something to give the whole Tuvix controversy some closure.

It would have been interesting if one of them agreed with Janeway's decision to separate them, and the other one preferred being Tuvix.
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