RSS iconTwitter iconFacebook icon

The Trek BBS title image

The Trek BBS statistics

Threads: 139,117
Posts: 5,400,877
Members: 24,741
Currently online: 523
Newest member: jenniferpham218

TrekToday headlines

Trek Merchandise Sale
By: T'Bonz on Aug 28

Star Trek #39 Villain Revealed
By: T'Bonz on Aug 28

Trek Big Bang Figures
By: T'Bonz on Aug 28

Star Trek Seekers Cover Art
By: T'Bonz on Aug 27

Fan Film Axanar Kickstarter Success
By: T'Bonz on Aug 27

Two New Starship Collection Ships
By: T'Bonz on Aug 26

Trek Actor Wins Emmy
By: T'Bonz on Aug 26

Trek Retro Watches
By: T'Bonz on Aug 26

New DS9 eBook To Debut
By: T'Bonz on Aug 25

Trek Ice Cube Maker and Shot Glasses
By: T'Bonz on Aug 25


Welcome! The Trek BBS is the number one place to chat about Star Trek with like-minded fans. Please login to see our full range of forums as well as the ability to send and receive private messages, track your favourite topics and of course join in the discussions.

If you are a new visitor, join us for free. If you are an existing member please login below. Note: for members who joined under our old messageboard system, please login with your display name not your login name.


Go Back   The Trek BBS > Star Trek TV Series > Star Trek - Original Series

Star Trek - Original Series The one that started it all...

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old May 14 2013, 01:44 PM   #331
GSchnitzer
Co-Executive Producer
 
GSchnitzer's Avatar
 
Location: Gaithersburg, Maryland, USA, Terra
Send a message via AIM to GSchnitzer Send a message via Windows Live Messenger to GSchnitzer Send a message via Yahoo to GSchnitzer
Re: Franz Joseph Blueprints Revisited

Robert Comsol wrote: View Post
For various reasons I mentioned before, there's sufficient reason to doubt that the final chart in the episode (opposite to intentions of the script, e.g. "ships incoming") is a repair/maintenance chart.
Well, if there are alternate interpretations of the final chart "opposite to the intentions of the script," then I guess we would agree that those alternate interpretations are, by definition, unintentional.
__________________
Greg Schnitzer
Co-Executive Producer
Star Trek Phase II
http://www.startrekphase2.com
http://www.imdb.com/name/nm3348883/
GSchnitzer is online now   Reply With Quote
Old May 14 2013, 01:45 PM   #332
Robert Comsol
Commodore
 
Robert Comsol's Avatar
 
Location: USS Berlin
Re: Franz Joseph Blueprints Revisited

@ Forbin

Especially as a part of an episode with obvious "exotic" editing. The starship captains are already sitting in the Starbase Club prior to their arrival, the only times Kirk is wearing his green wraparound tunic is in Stone's office etc.

To get back to the original topic, I think it's interesting that the "obsession" with NCC registries is owed to a large part to Franz Joseph's Technical Manual which nevertheless ignored the aforementioned starship status chart from "Court Martial"

@ GSchnitzer

Yes. The scriptwriter may have envisioned a different kind of chart, as I don't believe any of these bars reveals an "incoming ship", but the green extra bar you mentioned could indicate a "ship cleared".
There's also a good probability that the final chart was considered to be featured in a later scene where Kirk says "repairs almost complete" (= 83%).
But because of the "exotic" editing of this episode, we may have gotten the chart in the opening scene for which it hadn't been designed for.

Strictly "in-universe" speaking, the chart then became indeed unintentional but therefeore required a different interpretation, because the repair job of a ship that just arrived could hardly be already 83% complete.

Bob
__________________
"The first duty of every Starfleet officer is to the truth" Jean-Luc Picard
"We can't solve problems by using the same kind of thinking we used when we created them."
Albert Einstein

Last edited by Robert Comsol; May 14 2013 at 02:02 PM.
Robert Comsol is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 14 2013, 06:24 PM   #333
CorporalCaptain
Vice Admiral
 
CorporalCaptain's Avatar
 
Location: Kentucky
Re: Franz Joseph Blueprints Revisited

But 83% operational makes sense, doesn't it? That's what the label "Status" suggests, anyway.

That opens up the possibility that perhaps some of the other craft took quite a pounding.

Maybe some of them were less capable craft caught in the same storm. Maybe even some of them faced some alien menace that really took them task, that we could only find out about in a hypothetical spin-off series.
__________________
John
CorporalCaptain is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 14 2013, 06:28 PM   #334
feek61
Captain
 
feek61's Avatar
 
Location: The Sunshine State
Re: Franz Joseph Blueprints Revisited

GSchnitzer wrote: View Post
Warped9 wrote: View Post
I must have missed something because not for one second in all these years did that thought occur to me even remotely.
Towards the end of Greg Jein's "The Case for Jonathan Doe Starship" article in Issue Number 27 of the fanzine T-Negative, the editor of T-Negative, Ruth Berman, had the following editorial comment:

"* RB's note. Readers may recall from T-N 23 that I speculated that the chart measured where the ships were in their five-year missions, as it was numbered in percentages...."

So that was Ruth Berman's original thought. I don't know if everybody needs to disagree with her interpretation. It's kind of a goofy idea, but I guess it's not all that bizzare. "Completion of a five year mission" is no more goofy than "Completion towards initial ship construction." An Enterprise that's 83% complete probably doesn't refer to a five year mission or construction. It's probably just repair project.
Since this was the first season perhaps the graph could have represented the percentage LEFT on the 5 year mission (which in some sort of crazy way makes sense, lol).
__________________

Last edited by feek61; May 15 2013 at 01:30 AM.
feek61 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 14 2013, 10:00 PM   #335
Robert Comsol
Commodore
 
Robert Comsol's Avatar
 
Location: USS Berlin
Re: Franz Joseph Blueprints Revisited

CorporalCaptain wrote: View Post
But 83% operational makes sense, doesn't it? That's what the label "Status" suggests, anyway.
I assume if it would read "% operational" we wouldn't be having the discussion.

However, it does read "% complete" and this apparently refers to something else.

"Status" would be applicable in both cases, either as operational status or upgrade vs. repair status.

Bob
__________________
"The first duty of every Starfleet officer is to the truth" Jean-Luc Picard
"We can't solve problems by using the same kind of thinking we used when we created them."
Albert Einstein
Robert Comsol is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 14 2013, 10:33 PM   #336
EliyahuQeoni
Commodore
 
EliyahuQeoni's Avatar
 
Location: Redmond, Oregon, United States of America, North America, Earth, Sol System, Milky Way, Universe
View EliyahuQeoni's Twitter Profile
Re: Franz Joseph Blueprints Revisited

Robert Comsol wrote: View Post

To get back to the original topic, I think it's interesting that the "obsession" with NCC registries is owed to a large part to Franz Joseph's Technical Manual which nevertheless ignored the aforementioned starship status chart from "Court Martial"
FJ didn't ignore the chart, he just didn't interpret it to mean that all of those registry numbers represented starships of the Enterprise's class.
__________________
"Canon is only important to certain people because they have to cling to their knowledge of the minutiae. Open your mind! Be a Star Trek fan and open your mind and say, 'Where does Star Trek want to take me now'." - Leonard Nimoy
EliyahuQeoni is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 14 2013, 10:53 PM   #337
Robert Comsol
Commodore
 
Robert Comsol's Avatar
 
Location: USS Berlin
Re: Franz Joseph Blueprints Revisited

EliyahuQeoni wrote: View Post
FJ didn't ignore the chart, he just didn't interpret it to mean that all of those registry numbers represented starships of the Enterprise's class.
Looks like I missed information regarding Franz Joseph's research work. Did he actually ever see the chart from "Court Martial"?

Bob
__________________
"The first duty of every Starfleet officer is to the truth" Jean-Luc Picard
"We can't solve problems by using the same kind of thinking we used when we created them."
Albert Einstein
Robert Comsol is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 14 2013, 11:06 PM   #338
CorporalCaptain
Vice Admiral
 
CorporalCaptain's Avatar
 
Location: Kentucky
Re: Franz Joseph Blueprints Revisited

Robert Comsol wrote: View Post
EliyahuQeoni wrote: View Post
FJ didn't ignore the chart, he just didn't interpret it to mean that all of those registry numbers represented starships of the Enterprise's class.
Looks like I missed information regarding Franz Joseph's research work. Did he actually ever see the chart from "Court Martial"?

Bob
Well, saying that FJ's work "ignored the aforementioned starship status chart" might fairly read as claiming knowledge of his research work, as in knowing that he deliberately disregarded the chart. If you missed information regarding FJ's research work, then you don't know that he deliberately disregarded the chart.

With no starship names on the chart, what's to ignore, anyway? Plus, we already know that he got the Republic registry right (or right enough, as 1371), from that very episode, so it would be somewhat surprising if he didn't know about the chart at all.
__________________
John
CorporalCaptain is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 14 2013, 11:22 PM   #339
EliyahuQeoni
Commodore
 
EliyahuQeoni's Avatar
 
Location: Redmond, Oregon, United States of America, North America, Earth, Sol System, Milky Way, Universe
View EliyahuQeoni's Twitter Profile
Re: Franz Joseph Blueprints Revisited

Robert Comsol wrote: View Post
EliyahuQeoni wrote: View Post
FJ didn't ignore the chart, he just didn't interpret it to mean that all of those registry numbers represented starships of the Enterprise's class.
Looks like I missed information regarding Franz Joseph's research work. Did he actually ever see the chart from "Court Martial"?

Bob
Well, you're the one who claimed he "ignored" it. One cannot ignore something if they have never seen it.
__________________
"Canon is only important to certain people because they have to cling to their knowledge of the minutiae. Open your mind! Be a Star Trek fan and open your mind and say, 'Where does Star Trek want to take me now'." - Leonard Nimoy
EliyahuQeoni is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 14 2013, 11:30 PM   #340
Mysterion
Rear Admiral
 
Mysterion's Avatar
 
Location: SB-31, Daran V
Re: Franz Joseph Blueprints Revisited

So we do not know if FJ:

1) Saw the chart and then chose to ignore it.

or

2) Did not see the chart, so it had no bearing on his work whatsoever.
__________________
USS Galileo Galilei, NCC-8888
Prima Inter Pares
Mysterion is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 14 2013, 11:35 PM   #341
GSchnitzer
Co-Executive Producer
 
GSchnitzer's Avatar
 
Location: Gaithersburg, Maryland, USA, Terra
Send a message via AIM to GSchnitzer Send a message via Windows Live Messenger to GSchnitzer Send a message via Yahoo to GSchnitzer
Re: Franz Joseph Blueprints Revisited

Robert Comsol wrote: View Post
CorporalCaptain wrote: View Post
But 83% operational makes sense, doesn't it? That's what the label "Status" suggests, anyway.
I assume if it would read "% operational" we wouldn't be having the discussion.

However, it does read "% complete" and this apparently refers to something else.

"Status" would be applicable in both cases, either as operational status or upgrade vs. repair status.

Bob
Naw, the chart just means "operational." ("% Operational" would indeed have been the more accurate description for it.) If a different intent got injected by the art director other than was intended by the script, it was just an inadvertant production mistake. (I don't think the art director was empowered to unilaterally inject some alternate interpretation into the writers' script--nor would he likely want to.)

"INT. STONE'S OFFICE

"FEATURING chart with legend: STAR SHIP STATUS.
Columns lettered: Major Maintenance...Minor
Maintenance...Ships Incoming...Ships Cleared."

Also, Kirk's line about "repairs almost complete" was always scripted to be a Voice Over captain's log entry--even in earlier drafts of the script. With no such later scene ever planned or even contemplated, probability that the chart was made for some later scene approaches zero.

In fact, it was very studiously not shown in later scenes.



So showing necessary maintenance rescheduling in the opening scene was the sole intent (and sole appearance) of the chart.
__________________
Greg Schnitzer
Co-Executive Producer
Star Trek Phase II
http://www.startrekphase2.com
http://www.imdb.com/name/nm3348883/
GSchnitzer is online now   Reply With Quote
Old May 15 2013, 03:03 AM   #342
blssdwlf
Commodore
 
Re: Franz Joseph Blueprints Revisited

Robert Comsol wrote: View Post
because the repair job of a ship that just arrived could hardly be already 83% complete.
Actually it can. The Enterprise was damaged in the ion storm and made her way to the Starbase to complete her repairs. She could've started her repairs out in space and by the time she arrived at the Starbase, she was 83% complete in her task list of repairs to be made.

The possibility of the "% Complete" on that chart to mean "under construction" is probably very low because the Enterprise is on that same chart. She would have to be already completely constructed in order to undertake her various missions prior to this episode.
blssdwlf is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 15 2013, 08:25 AM   #343
Timo
Admiral
 
Re: Franz Joseph Blueprints Revisited

Of course, with "status" being so ambiguous, and "star ship" misspelled in relation to later usage, we could just as well argue that this is a list of starships that compete for Star Ship status, and the second ship from top has already won that status complete with the coveted Green Ribbon. Kirk's personal fumbling may now put his own ship's hopes of gaining the Green Ribbon in serious jeopardy... A sword of Damocles hanging over Kirk's, well, shoulder, as Stone psychologically turns up the heat before launching into full accusations.

Timo Saloniemi
Timo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 15 2013, 09:52 AM   #344
Robert Comsol
Commodore
 
Robert Comsol's Avatar
 
Location: USS Berlin
Re: Franz Joseph Blueprints Revisited

@ EliyahuQeoni

The way I see it, ignorance can either be that you see / learn something but decide to ignore it or that you "ignored" it because you didn't have access to the materials. In the interviews Franz Joseph (not me) claimed that he had access to several thousands film stills, but frankly I consider this to be a myth, especially when looking at his phaser type II reproduction in the Technical Manual.

Since Greg Jein was able to extrapolate from stills that there are numbers beginning with "16" but no such number ever appeared in Franz Joseph's works, it's a higher probability he never saw that scene or still and merely relied on the episode's script to learn that NCC-1371 was USS Republic (he didn't get the Commodore rank sleeves right in the Technical Manual although you can clearly see these in this episode).

@ GSchnitzer

If that's the interpretation that you prefer, it's fine but please don't make this (and other items) sound as if these were established facts that no longer require evaluation and examination. "Experts" like Mike Okuda obviously do have a different interpretation, because the Starship USS Intrepid (NCC-1631) is not on this chart but is being repaired in orbit of Starbase 11 when the Enterprise arrives.

@ blssdwlf

From the context of the episode and the naval analogy presented in this episode (e.g. "ashore" for "down on the planet") I understood that the ion storm mostly caused external "considerable damage" that requires "full repairs" and "a couple of days". I would also wonder why Kirk files a log entry at the beginning of the episode and fails to mention any repair effort by the crew. It's not his style to ignore accomplishments by his crew (compare log entries in "Where No Man Has Gone Before").

@ Timo

Wonderful unorthodox thinking. Maybe that's something we should investigate (after the 5-year-mission theory has been kicked out the door)...

Bob
__________________
"The first duty of every Starfleet officer is to the truth" Jean-Luc Picard
"We can't solve problems by using the same kind of thinking we used when we created them."
Albert Einstein
Robert Comsol is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 15 2013, 11:45 AM   #345
Sean_McCormick
Captain
 
Re: Franz Joseph Blueprints Revisited

AFAIK Intrepids NCC number comes from this chart nontheless. Okuda did not have access to images that high in resolution as we have today and misread the eight in NCC-1831 on the chart as a six.
Sean_McCormick is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Tags
blueprint, bridge, franz joseph, plans

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump



All times are GMT +1. The time now is 03:05 PM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.6
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
FireFox 2+ or Internet Explorer 7+ highly recommended.