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Old May 13 2013, 05:38 AM   #196
Gary7
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Re: 5 year old given rifle as gift, kills 2 year old sister

Miss Chicken wrote: View Post
And now at least 12 people have been shot during a Mothers Day parade in New Orleans. Luckily there have been no deaths this time around.
A sobering reminder... sad how we homosapiens have such a long way to go before we achieve true social harmony.
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Old May 13 2013, 10:42 AM   #197
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Re: 5 year old given rifle as gift, kills 2 year old sister

JarodRussell wrote: View Post
MacLeod wrote: View Post
Whoa Nellie wrote: View Post
I would also add that the 2nd amendment is not just another law or even just another Constitutional Amendment. It is one of the first ten amendments, also known as The Bill of Rights. The Bill of Rights was written by James Madison and specifically added to the Constitution to prevent tyranny by the central government.

Whoa Nellie
So if it so sacrosanct why is there a mechanism in place to ammend/repeal it? Surely putting in a means to ammend/rpeal something means that it is a living breathing document so to speak. That is able to adapt to suit the current era.

As has already been mentioned in this post several times (with links) the majority of Americans are in favour of some sort of gun control. Yet it appears as if the minority who favour little to no gun control are over ruling the majority. That's not how a democracy works.
That "minority" is represented by the NRA, and that's a powerful lobby. I think about 5 million members.
Remind me again what's the population of the USA circa 300m so that 5m represents about 1.7% of the population. We have a word for that it's minority. Really the NRA doesn't help it's cause by objecting to a m ajority of the proposals put forward to help curb gun violence.

And now another shooting in New Orleans thankfully with no fatalities. In some countries incidents like that would have the politicans and people saying what can we do to minimise an event such as this from occuring again. In the US it seems as if certain people are saying this happens and there is nothing we can do to prevent it from occuring. Sure we might not know all the underlying issues that cause the perpatrator to do what he did in New Orleans they will of course come out in the fullness of time.
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Old May 13 2013, 12:03 PM   #198
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Re: 5 year old given rifle as gift, kills 2 year old sister

Gary7 wrote: View Post
Miss Chicken wrote: View Post
And now at least 12 people have been shot during a Mothers Day parade in New Orleans. Luckily there have been no deaths this time around.
A sobering reminder... sad how we homosapiens have such a long way to go before we achieve true social harmony.
And that would be a first, because there is no such thing in nature.
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Old May 13 2013, 03:11 PM   #199
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Re: 5 year old given rifle as gift, kills 2 year old sister

Think of it as natural selection then.
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Old May 13 2013, 03:13 PM   #200
George Steinbrenner
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Re: 5 year old given rifle as gift, kills 2 year old sister

Whoa Nellie wrote: View Post
I would also add that the 2nd amendment is not just another law or even just another Constitutional Amendment. It is one of the first ten amendments, also known as The Bill of Rights. The Bill of Rights was written by James Madison and specifically added to the Constitution to prevent tyranny by the central government.

Whoa Nellie
The sole purpose of the 2nd Amendment is to equip a well-regulated militia (which is no longer necessary, now that we have things like the police and the military, which did not exist when the Constitution was written). It was meant to strengthen the government, not weaken or destroy it.
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Old May 13 2013, 04:52 PM   #201
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Re: 5 year old given rifle as gift, kills 2 year old sister

Hrm.... So you're from the alternate reality where the colonists insisted on adding a Bill of Rights because they trusted the idea of a centralized federal government.
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Old May 13 2013, 05:03 PM   #202
Whoa Nellie
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Re: 5 year old given rifle as gift, kills 2 year old sister

Mr. Laser Beam wrote: View Post
The sole purpose of the 2nd Amendment is to equip a well-regulated militia (which is no longer necessary, now that we have things like the police and the military, which did not exist when the Constitution was written). It was meant to strengthen the government, not weaken or destroy it.
A little American history lesson for Mr. Laser Beam. This is from the National Archives official site.

http://www.archives.gov/exhibits/cha...of_rights.html

During the debates on the adoption of the Constitution, its opponents repeatedly charged that the Constitution as drafted would open the way to tyranny by the central government. Fresh in their minds was the memory of the British violation of civil rights before and during the Revolution. They demanded a "bill of rights" that would spell out the immunities of individual citizens.
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Old May 13 2013, 05:07 PM   #203
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Re: 5 year old given rifle as gift, kills 2 year old sister

^ I am well aware of the purpose of the Bill of Rights, in general. I'm talking about the Second Amendment, specifically. The only reason IT exists is to provide for a militia, and we of course no longer need a militia because we have things that didn't exist at that time (the police, the military). Since those organizations now provide for the security of a free state, militias are no longer needed for that purpose.

Gun nuts always forget about the very specific word order in that amendment. "A well-regulated militia being necessary for the security of a free state..." They always leave that part out, because it doesn't feed their chaos/anarchy fantasies.
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Old May 13 2013, 05:25 PM   #204
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Re: 5 year old given rifle as gift, kills 2 year old sister

If we didn't have a military back then, what the heck was General George Washington a general in?
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Old May 13 2013, 05:43 PM   #205
George Steinbrenner
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Re: 5 year old given rifle as gift, kills 2 year old sister

^ A revolutionary army, not a standing military. That's how I interpret it.

In any case, since domestic security is clearly not the purview of the military, I should amend (pardon the pun ) my earlier statement. There was no such thing as a police department when the Second Amendment was written. Therefore the militia was the only method available to ensure order. That's why guns were intended to be available - to equip that militia, to keep order, to prevent chaos. It wasn't intended to CAUSE chaos, which is what so many gun nuts want.
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Old May 13 2013, 05:46 PM   #206
Whoa Nellie
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Re: 5 year old given rifle as gift, kills 2 year old sister

Mr. Laser Beam wrote: View Post
^ I am well aware of the purpose of the Bill of Rights, in general. I'm talking about the Second Amendment, specifically. The only reason IT exists is to provide for a militia, and we of course no longer need a militia because we have things that didn't exist at that time (the police, the military). Since those organizations now provide for the security of a free state, militias are no longer needed for that purpose.
Obviously you weren't aware of the purpose of the Bill of Rights because you stated the the purpose as the very opposite of the Founding Fathers' intentions as stated in my above link from the National Archive.

The 2nd amendment is an integral part of the Bill of Rights, hence its position at number two. Or are you actually arguing that the 2nd amendment was meant for the exact opposite purpose as the 1st, 3rd, 4th, 5th, 6th, 7th, 8th, 9th and 10th?

In my history classes I was always taught that the first 10 amendments (That's all ten!) to the United States Constitution were collectively called The Bill of Rights written by James Madison to prevent tyranny from a powerful central government.

Technically, there is a legal way to repeal any Constitutional amendment.

Would you actually see any of the 10 amendments of The Bill of Rights repealed?

No. Not a snowballs chance in Hell. It ain't happening. It would be political suicide for not only the individual proposing it, but his whole political party.

The President could not even get a gun control bill through a Senate controlled by his own party and that is a far political cry from repealing a Constitutional Amendment, especially one of the first ten.

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Old May 13 2013, 05:50 PM   #207
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Re: 5 year old given rifle as gift, kills 2 year old sister

Now my US history might be a little rusty and might be in error. But following the Revolutionary War the US had what was known as the Continental Army which wasn't a standing Army. Hence the need in part for the second Ammendment until sometime in the 19th Century the US didn't have a standing Army. So the 2nd Ammendment in part was needed to fufil this void so the US Government could call upon an armed citizenary in order to defend itself. Hence why the 2nd Ammendment talks about militia's.

Wasn't the Continental Army disbanded following the 1784 Treaty of Paris ending hostilities between the UK and the USA? With state militia's providing a ground army? Wasn't ituntil 1787 when Congress was granted the power to raise and support Armies? Now of course that isn't to say that it didn't exist in some form prior to that but wasn't it the War of 1812 that hastened developement of thins like the USN and US Marine Corp.
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Old May 13 2013, 05:51 PM   #208
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Re: 5 year old given rifle as gift, kills 2 year old sister

gturner wrote: View Post
If we didn't have a military back then, what the heck was General George Washington a general in?
Apples and oranges, dude. The American colonies' forces opposing the British weren't a standing military in the traditional and modern sense.

Rank doesn't necessarily mean the men under your command comprise a professional military organization.
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Old May 13 2013, 05:51 PM   #209
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Re: 5 year old given rifle as gift, kills 2 year old sister

Mr. Laser Beam wrote: View Post
Whoa Nellie wrote: View Post
I would also add that the 2nd amendment is not just another law or even just another Constitutional Amendment. It is one of the first ten amendments, also known as The Bill of Rights. The Bill of Rights was written by James Madison and specifically added to the Constitution to prevent tyranny by the central government.

Whoa Nellie
The sole purpose of the 2nd Amendment is to equip a well-regulated militia (which is no longer necessary, now that we have things like the police and the military, which did not exist when the Constitution was written). It was meant to strengthen the government, not weaken or destroy it.
Yeah, people seem to selectivly edit what the 2nd means. I question whether a lot of them know the actual text of it or not; or do they think it starts and ends with the whole "right to bear arms" clause.

A well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed.
Now I accept the idea fo the citizen militia (everyone of age is in the militia by default). Notice all that is tied to a "regulated" (see: regulations, law, controls, training, oversight by a higher authority) militia whose purpose is to defend "a free state". So arming up to take out the govt. would run counter to the conditions and purpose of the 2nd.
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Old May 13 2013, 06:22 PM   #210
Whoa Nellie
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Re: 5 year old given rifle as gift, kills 2 year old sister

SeerSGB wrote: View Post
Mr. Laser Beam wrote: View Post
Whoa Nellie wrote: View Post
I would also add that the 2nd amendment is not just another law or even just another Constitutional Amendment. It is one of the first ten amendments, also known as The Bill of Rights. The Bill of Rights was written by James Madison and specifically added to the Constitution to prevent tyranny by the central government.

Whoa Nellie
The sole purpose of the 2nd Amendment is to equip a well-regulated militia (which is no longer necessary, now that we have things like the police and the military, which did not exist when the Constitution was written). It was meant to strengthen the government, not weaken or destroy it.
Yeah, people seem to selectivly edit what the 2nd means.
Are you actually arguing that the 2nd amendment was meant for the exact opposite purpose as the 1st, 3rd, 4th, 5th, 6th, 7th, 8th, 9th and 10th?

Whoa Nellie
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