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Old May 12 2013, 06:55 PM   #766
R. Star
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Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

TheSubCommander wrote: View Post
Letting one die to save two others is the correct choice. It's about math. Tuvix was not a naturally created being, but a transporter accident.
Hopefully you'll never live in an authoritarian society where a single person without any checks or balances on them can decide you need to die to satisfy the perceived needs of the whole. Or decide that because you're different than everyone else in a small way your life can be explained away as not mattering.
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Old May 12 2013, 07:06 PM   #767
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Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

So is letting 6 people die to 7 the right choice, what about 600 to 601, 700 000 to 700 001 at what point is the line crossed?
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Old May 12 2013, 07:20 PM   #768
Elias Vaughn
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Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

I'm too lazy to go back and check, but is this thread fifty pages of people forgetting that the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few (or the one) has been a core conceit of Trek philosophy since at least Wrath of Khan?
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Old May 12 2013, 07:25 PM   #769
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Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

Elias Vaughn wrote: View Post
I'm too lazy to go back and check, but is this thread fifty pages of people forgetting that the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few (or the one) has been a core conceit of Trek philosophy since at least Wrath of Khan?
For whatever reason this always seems to come up. I'm pretty sure, though, that Spock wasn't trying to justify bloody murder when he said that. Vulcan adages aside, this still is the killing of a sentient individual being, who in no way, shape or form wanted to die.
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Old May 12 2013, 07:30 PM   #770
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Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

Were they also wrong to recombine Kirk in 'The Enemy Within' even though his evil half wanted to stay his own person?
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Old May 12 2013, 07:38 PM   #771
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Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

Elias Vaughn wrote: View Post
Were they also wrong to recombine Kirk in 'The Enemy Within' even though his evil half wanted to stay his own person?
The key difference, of course, being that they flat-out stated that both halves would die if not recombined.

But yes, the decision to do it against Evil Kirk's will is morally ambigous at best.
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Old May 12 2013, 07:41 PM   #772
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Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

M wrote: View Post
The key difference, of course, being that they flat-out stated that both halves would die if not recombined.
Tuvok and Neelix were dead without Tuvix being uncombined.

But yes, the decision to do it against Evil Kirk's will is morally ambigous at best.
Fair enough.
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Old May 12 2013, 07:45 PM   #773
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Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

You all have forgotten what happened in The Enemy Within. Evil Kirk changed his mind. He gave in; he wanted to live. He was just scared.
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Old May 12 2013, 07:48 PM   #774
Elias Vaughn
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Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

Were they not planning to recombine Kirk at all before his evil side gave in?
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Old May 12 2013, 08:09 PM   #775
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Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

Elias Vaughn wrote: View Post
Were they not planning to recombine Kirk at all before his evil side gave in?
Yes, they were. The transporter had to be fixed to beam up the freezing men. Neither half of Kirk was whole, anyway.
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Old May 12 2013, 08:09 PM   #776
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Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

Halliwell wrote: View Post
I've read this Tuvix argument and watched it go on for years and I find that people miss the point entirely. Janeway did not murder Tuvix. She did what any command bridge officer is supposed to do in emergency situations. Voyager is thousands of light years from home, with no chance, with the exception of the occasional stray along the way like Seven and Neelix, to have the ship restaffed with qualified personnel at a Starbase.
So in Workforce when that planet needed grunts to run their power station, their needs outweighed Voyagers needs and Kathryn should have jut submitted to the mind control, manipulation and all those new lives because saving a planet is more important than a lone starship charging windmills.

By your reckoning, your own employer could refuse to accept your resignation, and take your children because they need more manpower in the catering staff because the needs of a company trump the needs of a family.

Are you saying that Janeway doesn't value individual needs whatsoever? No one is allowed to leave, and here's something that was touched on by BSG no one is allowed to upskill or change their speciality because there's all those shity jobs that need to be done too.

MacLeod wrote: View Post
There was no pressing emergency.
There was too a pressing emergency. Kes loved Neelix so much and couldn't live without him. Which is the final argument that swayed Janeway. The emotional expectations of Tuvok and Neelix's support system. Okay, maybe pressing is an exaggeration and emergency is a bald faced lie.

MacLeod wrote: View Post
But he was still a being, and entitled to the rights the UFP gives to beings.
A book I read, said that the UFP in expectation of the future, that they create a reservation of at least 50 worlds surrounding every prewarpcivilization inside their borders, so that in a thousand years, 10,000 years, that they have somewhere to grow after they do finally invent warp drive.

Tuvix could have made a flag, and plant it in his quarters. Call it an embassy or call it an invasion, he is the totality of a civilization and might as well be a planet.

Lee Enfield wrote: View Post
btw. As I mentioned in another thread: The condition for Thomas Riker to be created were very unique. And the Quantum Method implies that they are both real and neither of them is a copy.
Unique? Really? A science team would have been sent to that planet and attempted to replicate the accident. Meanwhile the Federation spent almost 5 years fighting an inexhaustible clone army. At some point they had to consider making their own clones, transporter or otherwise.
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Old May 12 2013, 08:21 PM   #777
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Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

Elias Vaughn wrote: View Post
I'm too lazy to go back and check, but is this thread fifty pages of people forgetting that the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few (or the one) has been a core conceit of Trek philosophy since at least Wrath of Khan?
That was Star Trek II. Star Trek III flipped it. The needs of the few or the one outweigh the needs of the many.
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Old May 12 2013, 10:30 PM   #778
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Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

Elias Vaughn wrote: View Post
I'm too lazy to go back and check, but is this thread fifty pages of people forgetting that the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few (or the one) has been a core conceit of Trek philosophy since at least Wrath of Khan?
Don't forget that this is a principle you can choose for yourself. Your fate being ordered by another person is a completely different thing.

Just read this:

MacLeod wrote:
So is letting 6 people die to 7 the right choice, what about 600 to 601, 700 000 to 700 001 at what point is the line crossed?
Well, ...do I not hear Picard defending a minority against a majority in this? Dispite the benefits may have outweight for a majority? Because it doesn't matter how large the groups are. If it is against your will, it is against your will!

Guy Gardener wrote:

Lee Enfield wrote:
btw. As I mentioned in another thread: The condition for Thomas Riker to be created were very unique. And the Quantum Method implies that they are both real and neither of them is a copy.


Unique? Really? A science team would have been sent to that planet and attempted to replicate the accident. Meanwhile the Federation spent almost 5 years fighting an inexhaustible clone army. At some point they had to consider making their own clones, transporter or otherwise.
Dont know what it is you want to say.

1. Logistacally: The planet we are taking about is in the Alpha Quadrant. Research may be ongoing. The Voyager certainly has no access to this secret research (70.000 lightyears away) that would find no public support to create a clone army.
2. Morally: I doubt Starfleet would be so easy on creating a clone army through the reproduction of an accident. It certainly was shown as an entity that wouldn't enslave another species.

This idea of yours sounds rather out of character.
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Old May 12 2013, 10:52 PM   #779
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Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

Any semilegal yet totally immoral clone army would have been provoked into being created by the continuing Dominion War in the Alpha Quadrant that the Federation was losing.

At the very least a feasibility study would have been warranted.

And if the Federation wouldn't do it themselves, how much of a shot in the foot would it be to hand over the technology to the Klingons or Romulans?

Nathan Hale said:
I regret that I have but one life to give.
Or maybe this is why Solok's baseball team looked like identical dodecatuplets?
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Old May 12 2013, 11:02 PM   #780
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Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

Most Vulcans smell of dust, especially the men. I've been watching Clone Wars lately where they seem to be falling over themselves to show that the Jedi valued each and every clone as an individual, worthy of risking your life for and respect and stuff. And yet they keep making them on Kamino, churning them out and the only life they give them is a white suit of armor. The Jedi keep making speeches about how they value whatever clone they are talking to, it's a total mindfuck.

If the Federation had a clone army it would be a gold mine for all the Roddenberry ethicists who see Trek as veering from its foundations and losing its high ground. All that racism stuff is finished for tv, the gay stuff they missed the boat on.. creating their own ongoing ethical dilemma for Captains to opine over is the only answer to staying fresh.

There's no way they'd give the formula to the Klingons or Romulans to do, they would fear what what use they'd put them to after the war.
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