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Star Trek - Original Series The one that started it all...

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Old May 12 2013, 03:26 PM   #316
Timo
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Re: Franz Joseph Blueprints Revisited

I am having a brain lapse. When did Enterprise return to Earth during the course of TOS? I mean real, 23rd century Earth. Not Guardian of Forever Earth or black star slingshot 1967 Earth but good ol' 2265 Starfleet Earth?
Well, those two times, obviously. The only rational way to get to this "slingshot Earth" to do historical research there is to go to the "real" 23rd century Earth first and then slingshot. Although clearly you can also cast all rationality aside, slingshot around some black star somewhere (perhaps within the Sol system, though, since the region has its share of such anomalies and has been suspected of harboring at least two lack holes, in ST:TMP and "Past Tense"), and still end up in Earth's atmosphere somehow during the brief time you are unconscious - but when you return from that predicament, you return by slingshotting around Sol, and thus meet the "real" 23rd century Earth anyway.

Kirk basically stayed right next to Earth when visiting Pollux, too. Or Vulcan. Which happened to be almost en route between his previous assignment and the also-next-to-Earth Altair. None of which meets Kirk's own criteria for the final frontier, because he routinely quoted distances in the high hundreds of lightyears and visited stars located even farther our.

I'd say for the most part they were doing what their narrated mission statement said they would do AND doing the mundane stuff like escorting diplomats, fighting wars, policing space lanes, etc.
Yup. It's just that the mundane stuff appears to account for way more than half of what he was doing during those supposed five years... Either he stayed close to home, or interacted with peoples already quite familiar to the UFP, or both.

Of course, there's no harm in mislabeling the product in promotional material, which this "opening speech" would probably represent if it were somehow part of the Trek universe.

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Old May 12 2013, 03:50 PM   #317
blssdwlf
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Re: Franz Joseph Blueprints Revisited

Timo wrote: View Post
Either he stayed close to home, or interacted with peoples already quite familiar to the UFP, or both.
Or his ship was fast enough to easily go between Earth and out beyond explored space at anytime during the five year mission.
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Old May 12 2013, 04:23 PM   #318
aridas sofia
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Re: Franz Joseph Blueprints Revisited

Or you buy into Geoffrey Mandel's concept of "high chi" regions where the distribution of dust and gas impact effective warp speed, yielding something like Earth's air and ocean currents.
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Old May 12 2013, 04:32 PM   #319
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Re: Franz Joseph Blueprints Revisited

Which again makes this five-year thing sort of nonsensical, because the missions of exploration are two weeks long only - either thanks to technology, or thanks to the fundamental nature of warp propulsion. Why tie down Kirk and his starship for years at an end when anybody can hop to the final frontier at a moment's notice and be back before the commercial break ends?

We could say the Enterprise was one of those ships that were part of an exploration pool - in a policy decision, they could be summoned from their more important duties to exploration errands, while other ships could not. For the Enterprise, this exploration alert status was to last for five years, and several sorties were indeed made.

But that is completely at odds with Kirk actually having been five years out there, or with the ship having five years' worth of supplies, or whatever other arguments have been made here...

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Old May 12 2013, 06:44 PM   #320
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Re: Franz Joseph Blueprints Revisited

When Shatner reads "Space: the final frontier...", he's reading those words as an omniscient narrator; it's gospel.

We know the Enterprise was on a five-year mission. The narrator said so, end of story.
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Old May 12 2013, 10:00 PM   #321
blssdwlf
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Re: Franz Joseph Blueprints Revisited

Timo wrote: View Post
Which again makes this five-year thing sort of nonsensical, because the missions of exploration are two weeks long only - either thanks to technology, or thanks to the fundamental nature of warp propulsion.
Or it makes perfect sense since in the span of those five years, they are performing exploration work. Perhaps you'd feel better if the statement was amended with, "and returning home periodically to do non-exploration work" ?

Timo wrote: View Post
Why tie down Kirk and his starship for years at an end when anybody can hop to the final frontier at a moment's notice and be back before the commercial break ends?
Is that even true? Did Kirk's five year mission tie him down at all to prevent them from fulfilling their narrated mission goals and still performing routine tasks for starfleet? I think not.

Timo wrote: View Post
We could say the Enterprise was one of those ships that were part of an exploration pool - in a policy decision, they could be summoned from their more important duties to exploration errands, while other ships could not. For the Enterprise, this exploration alert status was to last for five years, and several sorties were indeed made.
That's pretty reasonable.

Timo wrote: View Post
But that is completely at odds with Kirk actually having been five years out there, or with the ship having five years' worth of supplies, or whatever other arguments have been made here...
It is only at odds with the five year mission if the ship did none of the tasks set out by the narration. Since it did accomplish all of those tasks and even more mundane tasks while all out in space, "out there", then it is puzzling why you'd claim otherwise.
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Old May 13 2013, 10:32 AM   #322
Robert Comsol
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Re: Franz Joseph Blueprints Revisited

Back to the secondary sub-topic of this thread, we all DO agree that the bars in the starship status chart in "Court-Martial" having nothing to do with the 5-Year-Mission (because the bar for the Enterprise reads 83% complete) ?

Bob
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Old May 13 2013, 10:53 AM   #323
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Re: Franz Joseph Blueprints Revisited

I must have missed something because not for one second in all these years did that thought occur to me even remotely.
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Old May 13 2013, 01:03 PM   #324
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Re: Franz Joseph Blueprints Revisited

Warped9 wrote: View Post
I must have missed something because not for one second in all these years did that thought occur to me even remotely.
Towards the end of Greg Jein's "The Case for Jonathan Doe Starship" article in Issue Number 27 of the fanzine T-Negative, the editor of T-Negative, Ruth Berman, had the following editorial comment:

"* RB's note. Readers may recall from T-N 23 that I speculated that the chart measured where the ships were in their five-year missions, as it was numbered in percentages...."

So that was Ruth Berman's original thought. I don't know if everybody needs to disagree with her interpretation. It's kind of a goofy idea, but I guess it's not all that bizzare. "Completion of a five year mission" is no more goofy than "Completion towards initial ship construction." An Enterprise that's 83% complete probably doesn't refer to a five year mission or construction. It's probably just repair project.
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Old May 13 2013, 04:12 PM   #325
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Re: Franz Joseph Blueprints Revisited

According to the new movie...
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Old May 13 2013, 04:30 PM   #326
Robert Comsol
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Re: Franz Joseph Blueprints Revisited

GSchnitzer wrote: View Post
"Completion of a five year mission" is no more goofy than "Completion towards initial ship construction." An Enterprise that's 83% complete probably doesn't refer to a five year mission or construction. It's probably just repair project.
Completion of upgrades following initial ship construction isn't goofy, IMHO, but thanks for returning to the secondary sub-topic.

Again, if the chart just shows the starships being repaired in orbit of Starbase 11 ("just repair projects"), how comes the Enterprise is already 83% complete before Stone gives the order to stop repairs on the Intrepid on behalf of Enterprise???

Captain's Log, Stardate 2947.3. We have been through a severe ion storm. One crewman is dead. Ship's damage is considerable. I have ordered a non-scheduled layover on Starbase Eleven for repairs. A full report of damages was made to the commanding officer of Starbase Eleven, Commodore Stone.

STONE: Maintenance Section 18. The section is working on the Intrepid. Reschedule. The Enterprise is on priority one. That makes three times you've read it [the full damage report], Jim. Is there an error?
KIRK: No. But the death of the crewman.

The whole context of this episode's beginning tells us that the Enterprise has just arrived at Starbase 11. To assume that at this point 83% of the ion storm damage have already been repaired should raise a couple of eyebrows.

Is Stone displeased with the efficiency of Maintenance Section 17 so that for the last remaining 13% he turns the repair work over to Maintenance Section 18?

Bob
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Old May 13 2013, 04:58 PM   #327
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Re: Franz Joseph Blueprints Revisited

If "Star Ship Status" refers to how operational the ship is at the moment, then it would appear that the Enterprise doesn't require as much work as almost all of the others.

Taking a team off the Intrepid to put on the Enterprise would make sense, if it was to get one of them back out into space as soon as possible, especially if the Intrepid was much more heavily damaged. Maybe Stone was sweating having both heavy cruisers out of action for too long.

Additionally, if having too many ships under repair dragged down the efficiency of the starbase at repairing all of them, by putting too much demand on some critical resource (e.g., the preparation of duranium), then that could also be a reason to get a ship off the repair list as quickly as possible.
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Old May 14 2013, 01:09 AM   #328
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Re: Franz Joseph Blueprints Revisited

Robert Comsol wrote: View Post
GSchnitzer wrote: View Post
"Completion of a five year mission" is no more goofy than "Completion towards initial ship construction." An Enterprise that's 83% complete probably doesn't refer to a five year mission or construction. It's probably just repair project.
Completion of upgrades following initial ship construction isn't goofy, IMHO, but thanks for returning to the secondary sub-topic.

Again, if the chart just shows the starships being repaired in orbit of Starbase 11 ("just repair projects"), how comes the Enterprise is already 83% complete before Stone gives the order to stop repairs on the Intrepid on behalf of Enterprise???

Captain's Log, Stardate 2947.3. We have been through a severe ion storm. One crewman is dead. Ship's damage is considerable. I have ordered a non-scheduled layover on Starbase Eleven for repairs. A full report of damages was made to the commanding officer of Starbase Eleven, Commodore Stone.

STONE: Maintenance Section 18. The section is working on the Intrepid. Reschedule. The Enterprise is on priority one. That makes three times you've read it [the full damage report], Jim. Is there an error?
KIRK: No. But the death of the crewman.

The whole context of this episode's beginning tells us that the Enterprise has just arrived at Starbase 11. To assume that at this point 83% of the ion storm damage have already been repaired should raise a couple of eyebrows.

Is Stone displeased with the efficiency of Maintenance Section 17 so that for the last remaining 13% he turns the repair work over to Maintenance Section 18?

Bob

If the chart is meant to show "percent of the necessary repair job still remaining to be done," then if the Enterprise came into port already at 83% completed, I would simply speculate that much of the repair work had already been handled by the Enterprise crew themselves via work bees and space suits and such before Kirk had ordered the non-scheduled layover on Starbase Eleven. (Being out on a five year mission, I presume the crew must have some capacity to affect repairs themselves.) So the ship might have pulled into port with 83% of the total anticipated repair project (whatever that overall project might have been) already completed out in the field.

Alternatively (and I think this the more likely scenario), the chart is probably meant to show "operational percent that the ship is currently at as a fraction of its usual, ordinary, optimal capacity." I would suppose that the Enterprise pulled into port working at only 83% of her usual self. (I suspect Kirk doesn't like getting a grade of B minus—even in his ship's operational status.) I know when I'm recovering from a cold or flu, I'll describe my health as something like "I'm feeling better, but I'm still at only about 50 percent." I generally don't mean "I am at about 50 percent of my way back from the lowest point I was at during this particular illness." What I generally do mean is "I am now functioning at about 50 percent of my usual state of health." So I think all these bar graphs simply indicate a ship's "current state of health." (And then the small green spot indicates that the ship can be discharged from the "ship hospital.") Getting a ship up to its "optimal" condition probably usually means bringing it back to the condition that is its usual steady-state condition. But I suppose "optimal" might also mean bringing the condition of a ship up to a newly-defined "normal" because of some planned upgrade or refit.

And like I said earlier, we're not really functioning in a vacuum on what Matt Jefferies intended with the chart. The chart is meant to convey not only major maintenance, but minor maintenance as well. His intentions are pretty explicit in the "Court Martial" script:

"INT. STONE'S OFFICE

"FEATURING chart with legend: STAR SHIP STATUS.
Columns lettered: Major Maintenance...Minor
Maintenance...Ships Incoming...Ships Cleared."

So it looks like the chart is actually meant to be a repair/maintenance chart—including, of course, minor maintenance. Of course, the whole context of this episode's beginning reinforces what Timothy says to Kirk in the Officer's Club: "I understand you're laying over for repairs," rather than "I understand you're laying over for completion of upgrades."
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Old May 14 2013, 08:28 AM   #329
Robert Comsol
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Re: Franz Joseph Blueprints Revisited

GSchnitzer wrote: View Post
So it looks like the chart is actually meant to be a repair/maintenance chart—including, of course, minor maintenance. Of course, the whole context of this episode's beginning reinforces what Timothy says to Kirk in the Officer's Club: "I understand you're laying over for repairs," rather than "I understand you're laying over for completion of upgrades."
For various reasons I mentioned before, there's sufficient reason to doubt that the final chart in the episode (opposite to intentions of the script, e.g. "ships incoming") is a repair/maintenance chart.

Of course, the Enterprise is at Starbase 11 to repair the ion storm damage which pulls the ship from active duty for several days.
Now, a look at the starship status chart and in particular NCC-1701, could tell Stone that in addition to the damage repair at Starbase 11 the Enterprise is still in line to receive upgrades (13%) which will pull the ship again from active duty some time in the future.

Obviously, at some point in TOS, the ship must have spent three weeks at a shipyard to reboot the entire computer system to fix the computer's voice according to "Tomorrow Is Yesterday".

Of course I don't know how much idle time is acceptable for a 23rd Century Starship, but Stone's decision in "Court Martial" to put the Enterprise on priority one repair service, could simply be his contribution to help to keep the idle time at a minimum (seeing that the ship will spent more time in a shipyard, soon).

Bob
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Old May 14 2013, 01:17 PM   #330
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Re: Franz Joseph Blueprints Revisited

Can you imagine the writer of the episode or the art dept guy who drew that chart reading this thread thru a time warp 40 years ago? - "What are these people going ON about? It was just a little throwaway bit we whipped out to move the story along!"
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