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Go Back   The Trek BBS > Star Trek TV Series > Voyager

Voyager There's coffee in this forum!

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Old May 10 2013, 12:52 AM   #751
Guy Gardener
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Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

There are entire penal colonies, but in the last sanatorium in the 23rd century there were 7 patients. From a population of Trillions, there were only 7 criminally insane persons... And Voyager was set a hundred years after Whom Gods Destroy.

I'd same the three key motivators for rape would be entitlement, insanity and stupidity.

If you take insanity off the table, even fractions of insanity we'd today consider practically normal, it's going to be a whole new world.
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Old May 10 2013, 01:15 PM   #752
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Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

It also means every bad person ever in Star Trek has no excuse and is just a huge jerk.
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Old May 11 2013, 08:18 PM   #753
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Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

Here is a suggestion. A tansporter is first used to make a Thomas Riker clone of Tuvix, with the original separated into Tuvok and Neelix.

Three for the price of two.

No one dies
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Old May 11 2013, 08:34 PM   #754
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Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

publiusr wrote: View Post
Here is a suggestion. A tansporter is first used to make a Thomas Riker clone of Tuvix, with the original separated into Tuvok and Neelix.

Three for the price of two.

No one dies
That was briefly touched upon earlier in the thread. But continuity was never Voyager's strength.
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Old May 12 2013, 06:57 AM   #755
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Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

publiusr wrote: View Post
Here is a suggestion. A tansporter is first used to make a Thomas Riker clone of Tuvix, with the original separated into Tuvok and Neelix.

Three for the price of two.

No one dies
All that does is create a new copy of Tuvix -- Tuvix 2.0 -- while still killing the original Tuvix in the course of creating new copies of Neelix and Tuvok (the originals of whom still remain dead).
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Old May 12 2013, 07:15 AM   #756
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Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

Sci wrote: View Post
publiusr wrote: View Post
Here is a suggestion. A tansporter is first used to make a Thomas Riker clone of Tuvix, with the original separated into Tuvok and Neelix.

Three for the price of two.

No one dies
All that does is create a new copy of Tuvix -- Tuvix 2.0 -- while still killing the original Tuvix in the course of creating new copies of Neelix and Tuvok (the originals of whom still remain dead).
Well unless the Tuvix copy is the one that is the one that is split and not the original.
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Old May 12 2013, 07:34 AM   #757
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Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

So with Will & Thomas Riker, one is the "real" Will, and one is a copy? Who determines which one is real?

If we're going to say that you can maintain continuity of identity while transporting, then they are both real. If not, every person who has ever used the transporter is a copy.
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Old May 12 2013, 07:38 AM   #758
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Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

Third Nacelle wrote: View Post
So with Will & Thomas Riker, one is the "real" Will, and one is a copy? Who determines which one is real?

If we're going to say that you can maintain continuity of identity while transporting, then they are both real. If not, every person who has ever used the transporter is a copy.
The real Riker was lost in a transporter accident before he became commander. The one we have been seeing since the start of TNG has been a copy.
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Old May 12 2013, 08:53 AM   #759
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Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

Thomas is The Riker Within.
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Old May 12 2013, 11:19 AM   #760
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Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

There are less ominous ways to say that Dee is preggers.
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Old May 12 2013, 02:11 PM   #761
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Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

I've read this Tuvix argument and watched it go on for years and I find that people miss the point entirely. Janeway did not murder Tuvix. She did what any command bridge officer is supposed to do in emergency situations. Voyager is thousands of light years from home, with no chance, with the exception of the occasional stray along the way like Seven and Neelix, to have the ship restaffed with qualified personnel at a Starbase.

In the TNG episode Thine Own Self, Deanna Troi had to learn that to command a starship, she may have to order a friend, or a member of the crew, to sacrifice themselves for the safety and the well being of the ship she commands. Janeway liked Tuvix. But when there was a way for her tactical AND second officer to be restored, the command descision to make would be to order Tuvix to be separated so Tuvok could be restored.

It may seem ugly, or immoral, or even murder to some. But if I were captain and in her situation, you better damn well bet I would order Tuvix to undergo the procedure. My duty to the ship and it's crew comes before personal or moral implications. Voyager needed it's tactical, security and second officer restored.

The needs of the many in this case, Voyager and it's crew, outweighed the needs of the one, Tuvix.
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Old May 12 2013, 04:07 PM   #762
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Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

It's been a while since i've seen "Thine Own Self", but she had to order some to their death in order to save the ship. There was no pressing emergency that required Janeway to order to Tuvix's to his death. Furthermore whilst Tuvix was a combination of Tuvok and Neelix he never attended the Academy and so Janeway couldn't order him to his death. He was in essence a civillian, sure she could put him off the ship. As for needing a tactical officer Tuvix seemed fully capable of fufulling that role.

And whilst a Captain has a responsibility to the ship and her crew, she also has to uphold the ideals and principals of the Federation. Sometimes upholding those ideals and principals puts you in a negative position.

As for VOY number of crew, one episode it was 132 next it was 140, then it was 142. So they seemed able to make crew appear out of thin air.
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Old May 12 2013, 04:09 PM   #763
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Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

Letting one die to save two others is the correct choice. It's about math. Tuvix was not a naturally created being, but a transporter accident.
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Old May 12 2013, 04:25 PM   #764
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Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

But he was still a being, and entitled to the rights the UFP gives to beings.
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Old May 12 2013, 04:30 PM   #765
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Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

Dream wrote: View Post
Third Nacelle wrote: View Post
So with Will & Thomas Riker, one is the "real" Will, and one is a copy? Who determines which one is real?

If we're going to say that you can maintain continuity of identity while transporting, then they are both real. If not, every person who has ever used the transporter is a copy.
The real Riker was lost in a transporter accident before he became commander. The one we have been seeing since the start of TNG has been a copy.
No. The transporter does not create copies! It's a quantum-state/position and energy transfer(!!). The Enterprise Technical Manual by Rick Sternbach states this, and it even draws a difference between a Molucalar Method (used for replicators) and the Quantum Method (used for transporters). With the Molucar Method you can save the pattern and use it, for instance, to create food but it wouldn't work on recreating an exact copy of anything on the quantum level. The Quantum Method cannot be stored, but it allows for the transportation of an actual person, that does not get destroyed, but transfred.


btw. As I mentioned in another thread: The condition for Thomas Riker to be created were very unique. And the Quantum Method implies that they are both real and neither of them is a copy.
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