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Go Back   The Trek BBS > Star Trek Movies > Star Trek Movies XI+

Star Trek Movies XI+ Discuss J.J. Abrams' rebooted Star Trek here.

View Poll Results: Grade the movie...
A+ 144 19.38%
A 161 21.67%
A- 100 13.46%
B+ 82 11.04%
B 58 7.81%
B- 27 3.63%
C+ 40 5.38%
C 38 5.11%
C- 24 3.23%
D+ 11 1.48%
D 13 1.75%
D- 10 1.35%
F 35 4.71%
Voters: 743. You may not vote on this poll

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Old May 11 2013, 06:20 PM   #1561
Pauln6
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Re: STAR TREK INTO DARKNESS - Grading & Discussion [SPOILERS]

RAMA wrote: View Post
Just a thought...we have to get used to the warp 10 scale no longer being valid in this universe...they are taking the element from Star Wars that makes storytelling easier...almost instantaneous supra light travel, in this case a transwarp like speed.

I don't necessarily have a problem with transwarp beaming, especially how it was described in the last movie. There have been science fiction stories in literature for years about long distance near-instantaneous travel, so it's not unprecedented.

ST has always played fast and loose with ranks. Again this is not really a big issue to me. Hardly indicative of bad script writing.
Perhaps not 'bad' but childish. Kirk's promotion was childish in its lack of realism for all the reasons spoken by Pike in this film. Chekov's promotion was childish in its realism. It isn't just about that fact that Chekov has just been placed in charge of about a dozen people who outrank him - it was a hamfisted way of giving him something to do. They could have done something similar without actually making him the chief.

Transwarping is childish. It doesn't pay any attention to their own established laws of physics. I'm not saying that the distance is the issue - its the timing and the method of actually knowing where you are going to end up that make no sense.

Trek has always been a bit silly but I just feel they are pushing the envelope too far. Re-watch early TOS in the light of the fact that it was made in the sixties. The science feels so much more sensible and grounded.
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Old May 11 2013, 06:21 PM   #1562
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Re: STAR TREK INTO DARKNESS - Grading & Discussion [SPOILERS]

Having Kronos 2mins away from Earth at warp is, well, idiotic. Why bother with a neutral zone when both worlds are now next door to each other? Klingon surprise attack by its entire fleet based at Kronos would be straightforward. It should be days away at least. Preferably weeks! It contradicts everything in Star Trek so far.

I expect the next movie will get to the centre of the galaxy in say.... 10 minutes? Why not? Why not nip to the delta quadrant in 20 mins? If it serves the plot and the pacing then so be it.

I can only presume nuWarp is infact more like the hyperspace jump from BSG rather than old warp.
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Old May 11 2013, 06:23 PM   #1563
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Re: STAR TREK INTO DARKNESS - Grading & Discussion [SPOILERS]

RAMA wrote: View Post
ST has always played fast and loose with ranks. Again this is not really a big issue to me. Hardly indicative of bad script writing.
Oh it is. Would you buy that were it a film about the Navy? They make a point about how Starfleet is a military organization, and then they ignore it and make it look like that organization has no protocols whatsoever. That's bad.
It reduces the tiny bit of realism that is left in science fiction/space opera and makes everything extremely cartoonish. Same with the incoherent distances, and many other things.
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Old May 11 2013, 06:27 PM   #1564
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Re: STAR TREK INTO DARKNESS - Grading & Discussion [SPOILERS]

ROBE wrote: View Post
I think Carol Marcus was introduced because they need another woman who isn't a nurse or yeoman.
Plus she looks good in bra and knickers.
She did look good!

But FYI - they didn't use the nurse (who was actually a research biologist) or the yeoman (who has been used to good effect as a yeoman/security guard in the comics) or Pike's former first officer, or the leader of the Vulcan people.

She was brought in because of her relationship to Admiral Marcus but I'm glad we have another woman. Two is better than one.

I scratched my head at Spock's surprise at a new science officer. It's a research vessel with a crew of over 400 people and she is a lieutenant. They have more than one science officer of that rank on board (but apparently not more than two engineering officers).
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Old May 11 2013, 06:35 PM   #1565
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Re: STAR TREK INTO DARKNESS - Grading & Discussion [SPOILERS]

Pauln6 wrote: View Post
Perhaps not 'bad' but childish. Kirk's promotion was childish in its lack of realism for all the reasons spoken by Pike in this film. Chekov's promotion was childish in its realism. It isn't just about that fact that Chekov has just been placed in charge of about a dozen people who outrank him - it was a hamfisted way of giving him something to do. They could have done something similar without actually making him the chief.
The thing is, there are always explanations.
Given that Scotty was throwing a fit and apparently walks off, maybe Chekov is the first person Kirk sees around in the moment and figures, "What the hell." Could be he expected Scotty to eventually come back after everyone cooled down, too.

The entire "give everyone something to do" thing bothers me, though, because it does lead to contrived situations like this.

Not to make too big a comparison (because of big gaps in their experience), but Miles O'Brien on DS9 wasn't an officer or even Starfleet, but he was chief engineer on the space station.
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Old May 11 2013, 06:39 PM   #1566
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Re: STAR TREK INTO DARKNESS - Grading & Discussion [SPOILERS]

JarodRussell wrote: View Post
RAMA wrote: View Post
ST has always played fast and loose with ranks. Again this is not really a big issue to me. Hardly indicative of bad script writing.
Oh it is. Would you buy that were it a film about the Navy? They make a point about how Starfleet is a military organization, and then they ignore it and make it look like that organization has no protocols whatsoever. That's bad.
It reduces the tiny bit of realism that is left in science fiction/space opera and makes everything extremely cartoonish. Same with the incoherent distances, and many other things.
Not really we already accept different ypes of warp drives, stargates, and other conceits to establish scifi universes, most of it is pretty far feteched in the first place, so the distance between warp and transwarp as a concept is negligible.

Nonsense, even in ST09 Starfleet isnt simply a military arm of the federation. Even if it were, every series has had questionable rank structure of some kind. Regardless, its a fictional series and not 100% analogous to the modern navy, its just used as a guide.

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Old May 11 2013, 06:42 PM   #1567
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Re: STAR TREK INTO DARKNESS - Grading & Discussion [SPOILERS]

JarodRussell wrote: View Post
What of that Countdown to Darkness comics made it into the film?
The only thing I noticed was a mention of the "Mudd incident." (They're using her ship to get down to Qo'noS)
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Old May 11 2013, 06:42 PM   #1568
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Re: STAR TREK INTO DARKNESS - Grading & Discussion [SPOILERS]

Pauln6 wrote: View Post
RAMA wrote: View Post
Just a thought...we have to get used to the warp 10 scale no longer being valid in this universe...they are taking the element from Star Wars that makes storytelling easier...almost instantaneous supra light travel, in this case a transwarp like speed.

I don't necessarily have a problem with transwarp beaming, especially how it was described in the last movie. There have been science fiction stories in literature for years about long distance near-instantaneous travel, so it's not unprecedented.

ST has always played fast and loose with ranks. Again this is not really a big issue to me. Hardly indicative of bad script writing.
Perhaps not 'bad' but childish. Kirk's promotion was childish in its lack of realism for all the reasons spoken by Pike in this film. Chekov's promotion was childish in its realism. It isn't just about that fact that Chekov has just been placed in charge of about a dozen people who outrank him - it was a hamfisted way of giving him something to do. They could have done something similar without actually making him the chief.

Transwarping is childish. It doesn't pay any attention to their own established laws of physics. I'm not saying that the distance is the issue - its the timing and the method of actually knowing where you are going to end up that make no sense.

Trek has always been a bit silly but I just feel they are pushing the envelope too far. Re-watch early TOS in the light of the fact that it was made in the sixties. The science feels so much more sensible and grounded.
Warp drive doesnt really rely on established laws of physics, it bypasses them.

In what series, especially back in the 60-80s do the nominal stars and co-stars NOT have more screen time than the namless characters, who outrank them or not? Well not really any of them. Same with STNG or Stargate or B5...it doesnt matter who should go on away missions, it's the paid stars who are going. This is not reality, this is Hollywood.

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Old May 11 2013, 07:09 PM   #1569
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Re: STAR TREK INTO DARKNESS - Grading & Discussion [SPOILERS]

Franklin wrote: View Post
Ulva wrote: View Post
[.
Well, the only mention of Khan's backstory in TWOK is when Chekov tells Terrell that Khan is a criminal and a product of late 20th century genetic engineering. Then Khan says Kirk stranded them on Ceti Alpha V.

As far as Harrison's motivations go, they may have been less recognizable than Khan's in TWOK (who was motivated only by pure, blinding revenge) because they were more subtle or nuanced (protect his commrades -- eventually free them, then go from there).

The scene with Spock Prime bothers me. I hope there's context to it. Why can't Spock find out about Khan from the ship's library computers, like in "Space Seed"? And from what I've heard (not having seen the movie yet), Spock Prime really doesn't say anything helpful.
Because Spock doesn´t need historical facts of who Khan was and what he did. He doesn´t trust Khan, who Kirk has teamed up with and space jumped into the USS Vengeance with. Spock thinks he needs a way to beat him in order to save the captain. Then, the logical thing is to call Spock Prime. He just can´t get the info he needs from the ship´s computer. Anyway, the whole conversation between them isn´t shown. So we have to imagine what Spock Prime tells Spock.

I was worried about this scene just being a fanwank, but it works well and feels natural in the movie. And, of course, it is great seeing Nimoy again
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Old May 11 2013, 07:17 PM   #1570
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Re: STAR TREK INTO DARKNESS - Grading & Discussion [SPOILERS]

Aike wrote: View Post
Franklin wrote: View Post
Ulva wrote: View Post
[.
Well, the only mention of Khan's backstory in TWOK is when Chekov tells Terrell that Khan is a criminal and a product of late 20th century genetic engineering. Then Khan says Kirk stranded them on Ceti Alpha V.

As far as Harrison's motivations go, they may have been less recognizable than Khan's in TWOK (who was motivated only by pure, blinding revenge) because they were more subtle or nuanced (protect his commrades -- eventually free them, then go from there).

The scene with Spock Prime bothers me. I hope there's context to it. Why can't Spock find out about Khan from the ship's library computers, like in "Space Seed"? And from what I've heard (not having seen the movie yet), Spock Prime really doesn't say anything helpful.
Because Spock doesn´t need historical facts of who Khan was and what he did. He doesn´t trust Khan, but he needs to get some information to confirm his own view. And he needs a way to beat him. Then, the logical thing is to call Spock Prime. He just can´t get the info he needs from the ship´s computer. Anyway, the whole conversation between them isn´t shown. So we have to imagine what Spock Prime tells Spock.

I was worried about this scene just being a fanwank, but it works well and feels natural in the movie. And, of course, it is great seeing Nimoy again
Good. It also addresses the "Will they or won't they?" question about picking Spock Prime's brain in crucial situations that was a topic of these boards for quite a while. Apparently, Spock will. Why not? Spock Prime is a resource. As you said, it's logical.
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Old May 11 2013, 07:19 PM   #1571
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Re: STAR TREK INTO DARKNESS - Grading & Discussion [SPOILERS]

Flake wrote: View Post
Having Kronos 2mins away from Earth at warp is, well, idiotic. Why bother with a neutral zone when both worlds are now next door to each other? Klingon surprise attack by its entire fleet based at Kronos would be straightforward. It should be days away at least. Preferably weeks! It contradicts everything in Star Trek so far.
I guess you missed Enterprise's "Broken Bow"

And Deep Space Nine, where Earth, Bajor, Romulus, Kronos and Ferenginar were just a short Runabout ride away.
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Old May 11 2013, 07:24 PM   #1572
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Re: STAR TREK INTO DARKNESS - Grading & Discussion [SPOILERS]

Flake wrote: View Post
Having Kronos 2mins away from Earth at warp is, well, idiotic. Why bother with a neutral zone when both worlds are now next door to each other? Klingon surprise attack by its entire fleet based at Kronos would be straightforward. It should be days away at least. Preferably weeks! It contradicts everything in Star Trek so far.
No, it really doesn't.

Warp speed has always been as fast as the plot needs it to be. In TOS, the Enterprise traveled 990+ light years in a few hours. In TNG, Q hurled the Enterprise 7000 light years away and it would only take two years to get back to Federation space. In Voyager, it would take seventy years to travel 70,000 light years.
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Old May 11 2013, 07:26 PM   #1573
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Re: STAR TREK INTO DARKNESS - Grading & Discussion [SPOILERS]

hux wrote: View Post
Additional

......anyone else think Noel Clarkes character was entirely unnecessary and we really didn't need to see the whole father/daughter stuff....i mean he's Khan....i'm sure if we just saw a massive explosion at the start of the film, we could easily accept that khan/Harrison could have done this (cos he's clever and such) without needing to see all the preamble nonsense with Clarke leading up to it...plus it would have shaved about 8 minutes from the film (which was necessary imo)
That sequence servers it's purposes: It establishes Harrison/Khan, his charisma, his knowledge and most importantly his blood and what it can do.
The scenes tie into the film's theme of "what would you do for your family".
And that's why Noel Clarke's character is important. He shows that perfectly ordinary people can be brought to do the most awful crimes.
Khan managed to turn him into a suicide-bomber, because he (Khan) was known at Section 31.
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Old May 11 2013, 07:31 PM   #1574
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Re: STAR TREK INTO DARKNESS - Grading & Discussion [SPOILERS]

I'm in the US so I haven't seen the movie yet, and can't comment on it's specifics, but I think travel time has easily been one of the least consistent aspects of the entire franchise. So any travel time issues in this movie don't really worry me at all.
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Old May 11 2013, 07:39 PM   #1575
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Re: STAR TREK INTO DARKNESS - Grading & Discussion [SPOILERS]

King Daniel wrote: View Post
Flake wrote: View Post
Having Kronos 2mins away from Earth at warp is, well, idiotic. Why bother with a neutral zone when both worlds are now next door to each other? Klingon surprise attack by its entire fleet based at Kronos would be straightforward. It should be days away at least. Preferably weeks! It contradicts everything in Star Trek so far.
I guess you missed Enterprise's "Broken Bow"

And Deep Space Nine, where Earth, Bajor, Romulus, Kronos and Ferenginar were just a short Runabout ride away.
BillJ wrote: View Post
Flake wrote: View Post
Having Kronos 2mins away from Earth at warp is, well, idiotic. Why bother with a neutral zone when both worlds are now next door to each other? Klingon surprise attack by its entire fleet based at Kronos would be straightforward. It should be days away at least. Preferably weeks! It contradicts everything in Star Trek so far.
No, it really doesn't.

Warp speed has always been as fast as the plot needs it to be. In TOS, the Enterprise traveled 990+ light years in a few hours. In TNG, Q hurled the Enterprise 7000 light years away and it would only take two years to get back to Federation space. In Voyager, it would take seventy years to travel 70,000 light years.
Yes I am aware of these episodes. I think Enterprise, Broken Bow was 4 days at Warp 5? or something? Its still a significant passage of time.

Runabout hops? My DS9 is rusty.. but where any of these hops 2 minutes? Do we know the travel time?

I know the ship travels at the speed of plot but the distances and travel times in STID are unprecedented in Trek and must indicate they are using a new kind of warp speed? Transwarp? You cannot deny this? The implications for telling a Trek story in future films or television are huge assuming they continue this movies continuity. The galaxy is a small place now. Smaller than ever before.
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