RSS iconTwitter iconFacebook icon

The Trek BBS title image

The Trek BBS statistics

Threads: 135,856
Posts: 5,221,306
Members: 24,232
Currently online: 571
Newest member: glasssplashback

TrekToday headlines

Takei To Receive Award
By: T'Bonz on Apr 23

Yelchin In New Comedy
By: T'Bonz on Apr 23

U.S. Rights For Pegg Comedy Secured
By: T'Bonz on Apr 23

Shatner: Aging and Work
By: T'Bonz on Apr 23

Kurtzman And Orci Go Solo
By: T'Bonz on Apr 22

Star Trek #32 Preview
By: T'Bonz on Apr 22

Voyager Bridge Via The Oculus Rift
By: T'Bonz on Apr 21

Miles Away Glyph Award Nominations
By: T'Bonz on Apr 21

Q Meets NuTrek Crew
By: T'Bonz on Apr 18

Pine In Talks For Drama
By: T'Bonz on Apr 18


Welcome! The Trek BBS is the number one place to chat about Star Trek with like-minded fans. Please login to see our full range of forums as well as the ability to send and receive private messages, track your favourite topics and of course join in the discussions.

If you are a new visitor, join us for free. If you are an existing member please login below. Note: for members who joined under our old messageboard system, please login with your display name not your login name.


Go Back   The Trek BBS > Welcome to the Trek BBS! > General Trek Discussion

General Trek Discussion Trek TV and cinema subjects not related to any specific series or movie.

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old May 10 2013, 09:42 PM   #16
C.E. Evans
Vice Admiral
 
C.E. Evans's Avatar
 
Location: Saint Louis (aka Defiance)
Re: Is there a need for a Helm Department?

The Librarian wrote: View Post
C.E. Evans wrote: View Post
Chaos Descending wrote: View Post
Except that in the modern US Navy the Engineering officers are most certainly what Star Trek would call "Command Division" officers.
It's one of the differences between Starfleet and the modern US Navy.
.
Is it, though? Let's look at a couple of career tracks that we've seen.

Geordi: Helmsman, chief engineer, captain (in a possible future)
Worf: Helmsman/bridge lackey, chief of security, chief of ops (while Data was assumed dead), strategic operations / Defiant XO, would have eventually reached captain.

They both go from red to gold to red, and Worf even takes over a technical department for a while. I don't think there's any reason to assume that department specialization is set in stone or in any way influences whether they'll reach a command position.
I'm not actually talking about any of this at all, but rather just the issue of different terminology between Starfleet and today's navy.
__________________
"Everybody wants to rule the world..."
C.E. Evans is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 11 2013, 12:07 AM   #17
JirinPanthosa
Commodore
 
Re: Is there a need for a Helm Department?

It's also likely it takes more than one person to handle navigation, and the officer at the helm has to communicate with a lot of people.

Maybe the helm officer can fully control the ship himself in a pinch, but optimally it's handled by multiple people with different roles.
JirinPanthosa is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 11 2013, 12:40 AM   #18
SchwEnt
Fleet Captain
 
Re: Is there a need for a Helm Department?

WillsBabe wrote: View Post
I was watching TNG the other day for the first time in years and I had to ask myself if there is any need to helm or navigation. Surely the captain/first officer could just tell the computer where they want to go and when they want to arrive by, and the ship can steer itself.
I was just gonna post this same comment. TNG LCARS era has quite a bit of verbal ordering of the computer. I can easily see the captain's usual order "set course 213 mark 15, speed warp six" being given to the ship's computer for execution. LCARS systems seem advanced enough to handle such an order, although we've never really seen it replace the helmsman.

Plus, there was early TNG Tech Manual info about the ship being advanced enough that one could pilot it with a PADD from any location. If it was that easy/advanced, it would again seem to diminish the role of helmsman--at least in TNG era.
SchwEnt is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 11 2013, 12:53 AM   #19
Kelthaz
Commodore
 
Kelthaz's Avatar
 
Location: Toronto, Ontario
Re: Is there a need for a Helm Department?

Of course there is. StarFleet needs a permanent position on the bridge for a red shirt to sit in order to protect the senior officers.
__________________
"Who are you?! And how did you get in here?!"

"I'm the locksmith. And... I'm the locksmith."
Kelthaz is online now   Reply With Quote
Old May 11 2013, 02:33 AM   #20
TheRoyalFamily
Commodore
 
TheRoyalFamily's Avatar
 
Re: Is there a need for a Helm Department?

SchwEnt wrote: View Post
WillsBabe wrote: View Post
I was watching TNG the other day for the first time in years and I had to ask myself if there is any need to helm or navigation. Surely the captain/first officer could just tell the computer where they want to go and when they want to arrive by, and the ship can steer itself.
I was just gonna post this same comment. TNG LCARS era has quite a bit of verbal ordering of the computer. I can easily see the captain's usual order "set course 213 mark 15, speed warp six" being given to the ship's computer for execution. LCARS systems seem advanced enough to handle such an order, although we've never really seen it replace the helmsman.

Plus, there was early TNG Tech Manual info about the ship being advanced enough that one could pilot it with a PADD from any location. If it was that easy/advanced, it would again seem to diminish the role of helmsman--at least in TNG era.
The way I see it is:
1. Captain gives command: "Go thata way."
2. Helm/navigation chooses the best route to go that way (around space hazards, best warp paths, etc).
3. Computer takes care of all the minute microsecond-level details so the ship doesn't tear itself apart when it hits a bump in space-time.
4. Engineering crew makes sure the computer is doing its job re. not blowing up ship.

In normal situations this is simple stuff; the computer could do it without the helmsman, but they are there to override the computer if it does something off, and to gain experience, etc. You usually see a senior member of the crew jump into the pilot seat in a time of crisis, as they would have more experience and skill in the above.

Starfleet seems to have something against AI, and robots in particular. They don't even seem to have them to do routine maintenance, like clean the waste processors. I wonder if the Telarites had some sort of robot apocalypse in their history or something
__________________
You perceive wrongly. I feel unimaginable happiness wasting time talking with women. I'm that type of human.
TheRoyalFamily is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 11 2013, 02:41 AM   #21
Third Nacelle
Captain
 
Third Nacelle's Avatar
 
Location: The Denorios Belt
Re: Is there a need for a Helm Department?

If you really think about it, is there a good in-universe reason for the Enterprise-D to have over 1,000 crewmembers? I'm sure there a lot of jobs that humans do the computer could be doing instead.

The out-of-universe reason is nobody wants to see a future in which humans are obsolete.
Third Nacelle is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 11 2013, 02:55 AM   #22
TheRoyalFamily
Commodore
 
TheRoyalFamily's Avatar
 
Re: Is there a need for a Helm Department?

Doesn't the thousand include all the families, civies, etc on board?
__________________
You perceive wrongly. I feel unimaginable happiness wasting time talking with women. I'm that type of human.
TheRoyalFamily is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 11 2013, 03:02 AM   #23
Third Nacelle
Captain
 
Third Nacelle's Avatar
 
Location: The Denorios Belt
Re: Is there a need for a Helm Department?

^Yes, but most of them seem to have jobs too, from what we've seen. I mean, aside from the children. What exactly would a stay-at-home spouse do in the 24th century? Putting plates back in the replicator only eats up so many minutes.
Third Nacelle is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 11 2013, 03:03 AM   #24
Nerys Myk
Fleet Admiral
 
Nerys Myk's Avatar
 
Location: House of Kang, now with ridges
Re: Is there a need for a Helm Department?

More people equals more plot possibilities. Also, its more interesting for the Captain to interact with people than a computer.
__________________
The boring one, the one with Khan, the one where Spock returns, the one with whales, the dumb one, the last one, the one with Kirk, the one with the Borg, the stupid one, the bad one, the new one, the other one with Khan.
Nerys Myk is online now   Reply With Quote
Old May 11 2013, 03:15 AM   #25
TheRoyalFamily
Commodore
 
TheRoyalFamily's Avatar
 
Re: Is there a need for a Helm Department?

I'd think most of the civies on Enterprise were scientists of various sorts. Keiko sure fits that role. You'd also have your odd historian, linguist, and the like. They are supposed to be the tip of Starfleet's exploration arm, after all.
__________________
You perceive wrongly. I feel unimaginable happiness wasting time talking with women. I'm that type of human.
TheRoyalFamily is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 11 2013, 03:17 AM   #26
USS Excelsior
Fleet Captain
 
USS Excelsior's Avatar
 
Location: Alpha Quadrant
Re: Is there a need for a Helm Department?

TheRoyalFamily wrote: View Post

Starfleet seems to have something against AI, and robots in particular. They don't even seem to have them to do routine maintenance, like clean the waste processors. I wonder if the Telarites had some sort of robot apocalypse in their history or something

What we saw in the ENT episode dead stop with the repair station is more likely how repairs will really be conducted and at high speed with those robotic worker arms and stuff.
USS Excelsior is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 11 2013, 03:33 AM   #27
TheRoyalFamily
Commodore
 
TheRoyalFamily's Avatar
 
Re: Is there a need for a Helm Department?

USS Excelsior wrote: View Post
TheRoyalFamily wrote: View Post

Starfleet seems to have something against AI, and robots in particular. They don't even seem to have them to do routine maintenance, like clean the waste processors. I wonder if the Telarites had some sort of robot apocalypse in their history or something

What we saw in the ENT episode dead stop with the repair station is more likely how repairs will really be conducted and at high speed with those robotic worker arms and stuff.
But that was an alien station, wasn't it? What Starfleet facilities we have seen seem to use manned worker bees and the like.

But still, that's not day-to-day stuff. It would make more sense to have a bunch of advanced Roombas doing the cleaning, rather than some non-coms/Bajorans.
__________________
You perceive wrongly. I feel unimaginable happiness wasting time talking with women. I'm that type of human.
TheRoyalFamily is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 11 2013, 06:03 AM   #28
C.E. Evans
Vice Admiral
 
C.E. Evans's Avatar
 
Location: Saint Louis (aka Defiance)
Re: Is there a need for a Helm Department?

TheRoyalFamily wrote: View Post
I'd think most of the civies on Enterprise were scientists of various sorts. Keiko sure fits that role. You'd also have your odd historian, linguist, and the like. They are supposed to be the tip of Starfleet's exploration arm, after all.
I tend to think a Galaxy-class starship is as much a mobile starbase as it is a deep-space exploration vessel. In that capacity, it carries out the additional roles of a Federation embassy and township, IMO.
__________________
"Everybody wants to rule the world..."
C.E. Evans is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 11 2013, 06:44 AM   #29
Lee Enfield
Lieutenant
 
Lee Enfield's Avatar
 
Location: Germany
Re: Is there a need for a Helm Department?

Third Nacelle wrote: View Post
^Yes, but most of them seem to have jobs too, from what we've seen. I mean, aside from the children. What exactly would a stay-at-home spouse do in the 24th century? Putting plates back in the replicator only eats up so many minutes.
Schools, Arboretum, Lounges, and places like that would probably make use of civilians ( or is it the other way around...?...). A ship like a Galaxy Class is much like a little town. And people want to be active in its commune. Some might not like working in a Cafe, but they might be in a book club...
Lee Enfield is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 11 2013, 10:52 AM   #30
MacLeod
Admiral
 
Location: Great Britain
Re: Is there a need for a Helm Department?

WillsBabe wrote: View Post
I was watching TNG the other day for the first time in years and I had to ask myself if there is any need to helm or navigation. Surely the captain/first officer could just tell the computer where they want to go and when they want to arrive by, and the ship can steer itself.
Captain: "Computer, Set course two-one-three Mark seven."

Computer: ""Unable to comply, the automatic pilot system is offline."

Automation is all very well and good, but like any system it can fail. Today a plane could take off, fly to it's destination and land all by itself." But would you fly on it without a pilot?

As for having a dedicated department, sure everyone might receive basic training in piloting a starship, but their is a difference between basic and advanced training.
__________________
On the continent of wild endeavour in the mountains of solace and solitude there stood the citadel of the time lords, the oldest and most mighty race in the universe looking down on the galaxies below sworn never to interfere only to watch.
MacLeod is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump



All times are GMT +1. The time now is 05:01 AM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.6
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
FireFox 2+ or Internet Explorer 7+ highly recommended.