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Go Back   The Trek BBS > Star Trek Movies > Star Trek Movies XI+

Star Trek Movies XI+ Discuss J.J. Abrams' rebooted Star Trek here.

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Old May 10 2013, 08:48 PM   #61
Admiral Buzzkill
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Re: All right, all you JJ-haters! Put your money where your mouth is!

CDR6 wrote: View Post
I see your challenge and raise you the members of this BBS. From what I have seen and read here in this BBS, there is sufficient talent right here to best JJ and the Bad Robot group.
There is no evidence whatever to support that and a good deal to contradict it.
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Old May 10 2013, 09:30 PM   #62
mos6507
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Re: All right, all you JJ-haters! Put your money where your mouth is!

beamMe wrote: View Post
Are the writer of the TOS novels just as "pathetically uncreative" and "can't [...] exert a little effort"?
The writers don't have to cast them, build sets, do FX, etc... Your imagination can fill in the blanks and make it 1969 all over again. Total apples and oranges. Plus, TOS novel book sales wouldn't come close to a new TV series. It's niche.

beamMe wrote: View Post
And now they can watch them have new adventures where anything is possible.
Anything's possible, but not necessarily plausible or desirable. I prefer my Enterprise not to be a submarine and Spock not to have Vader "Noooo!!!!!" moments of farce.
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Old May 10 2013, 09:40 PM   #63
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Re: All right, all you JJ-haters! Put your money where your mouth is!

Ovation wrote: View Post
The bigger that universe got, the less appealing it became to the general audience.
But that's not because it's big. It's because it wasn't written well enough.

Ovation wrote: View Post
why not go all the way and do something not related to Trek at all?
I totally agree with that, other than the fact that Trek is so broad that to do anything remotely like it will attract claims that it's Trek with the serial numbers filed off.

Ovation wrote: View Post
the rest of the "HUGE universe" is NOT an integral part of popular culture.
Well, take Khan for instance. He was in one episode of TOS. Trek II is what turned him into a pop-culture icon. He simply did not occupy that space until that movie elevated him to that level.

So all you really need to do is have some clue as to how things BECOME pop culture icons in the first place, and go ahead and make them.

The argument that any Trek spinoff show has to be about garbage scow captains is ridiculous.

Certainly Gene did his best to establish new icons on TNG. And certainly he was partially successful, as Picard's facepalm dominating the internet attests to. So what's the big deal? Go out there and make new characters that are interesting.
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Old May 10 2013, 09:52 PM   #64
gottacook
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Re: All right, all you JJ-haters! Put your money where your mouth is!

beamMe wrote: View Post
gottacook wrote: View Post
What I would want is a modestly budgeted Trek adventure (with the original series characters, of course) every 9 to 12 months or so. Two-hundred-million-dollar blockbusters have to be lowest-common-denominator pictures with some potential for selling tickets worldwide, and are therefore compromised sixteen different ways before cameras even roll. A focused, more modest production can tell a better story, almost by default, and can still be something worth going to the theater for.

What got me thinking in these terms was that Philip K. Dick in "The Electric Ant" (1969) and Flow My Tears, the Policeman Said (1970/74), and possibly elsewhere, has characters casually watching a "captain kirk" on TV or discussing seeing one at a theater, respectively. That is, he imagined future U.S. cultures in which Star Trek (perhaps not even called that any longer) was just part of the furniture, as it were - something so accepted as to be almost routine, not even deserving of initial caps. This would be preferable to the present situation where Star Trek consists of an "event" picture, with all the requisite pitfalls, every 3 or 4 years.
I'd rather have an event than that wallpaper background noise you seem to prefer.
Each TOS episode was an event for me when I was a child. Sadly Star Trek turned into this routine background noise during the 90 and early Naughties.
I'm glad Abrams and his crew managed to bring back the spectacle and the heart of TOS with his movies.
Dear Starship Fleet Captain,

I respectfully disagree. Event pictures make themselves ridiculous by their very nature, requiring teasing of the picture years in advance (as in the present case), which all by itself I find off-putting.

Having smaller movies at more frequent intervals - even at the risk of them becoming "captain kirks" - would be worthwhile because no single movie would be such a big risk, would have so much money riding on it as to almost require a reference to a prior big hit in the Star Trek universe. For that reason alone a Star Trek event picture is self-defeating in terms of story. It's evidently the same impulse that drew Old Spock back in last time. For analogous reasons, the original Star Trek Big Event Movie (TMP) turned out to be a virtual rewrite of "The Changeling."

This simply underscores the finesse (accidental, perhaps, in some respects, given the various script ideas that were eventually combined) exerted in the making of TWoK. It too depended on a preexisting story but was able to be up front about it, possibly by virtue of incorporating the real-life passage of 15 years' time into the story. (By contrast, in TMP the crew has evidently never encountered Nomad; in Nemesis they've never come across Lore; etc.) Also TWoK was made fairly cheaply, even taking into account a portion of the initial cost of a few scenes borrowed from TMP; a more expensive movie requires heavier, costlier, downright oppressive marketing.

With respect to "Each TOS episode was an event for me when I was a child. Sadly Star Trek turned into this routine background noise during the 90 and early Naughties": I don't disagree with any of this. There were many TNG episodes that felt like events as well, at least to me. (I would even go so far as to say that most episodes of the post-TNG series became "background noise" in proportion to their musical scores becoming bland, featureless, and non-nutritious, but that's another story.)
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Old May 10 2013, 09:52 PM   #65
ConRefit79
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Re: All right, all you JJ-haters! Put your money where your mouth is!

I doubt they would reboot so soon. So let's keep the same crew. Make sure Kirk has grown up. Just forget about the Spock and Uhura fling. It's inappropriate anyway, because he's a senior officer. Kirk, Spock and Bones are now a team similar to their TOS counterparts.

Enterprise (Hopefully refitted to Look better than the current incarnation) has just escaped some disaster and arrives in a distant alien star system. Like the episode tomorrow is yesterday, the ship stops in the upper atmosphere of a planet with two factions in a tense cold war(Think 1962). One of the factions is on the threshold of warp drive. Enterprise is severely damaged. No warp(And get rid of the new warp phenomenon. No Dune Space folds) or sub space communication. A part of the ship breaks away and takes out a building of the faction without warp drive. This faction believes the other side attacked them. They retaliate even though the other side denies it raising the possibility for all out war.

Once in orbit, the undetected Enterprise's crew sees the effect they've had. But they need to recover some technology which survived impact on the building. So they beam down disguised as natives, but are captured as enemy spies and later rescued. This heightens the tensions further. The side without warp tech detects Enterprise and believes its a secret warship created by their enemies and launches a full scale attack. The other side responds. So how does Kirk and crew save the day.
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Old May 10 2013, 09:54 PM   #66
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Re: All right, all you JJ-haters! Put your money where your mouth is!

ConRefit79 wrote: View Post
I doubt they would reboot so soon. So let's keep the same crew. Make sure Kirk has grown up. Just forget about the Spock and Uhura fling. It's inappropriate anyway, because he's a senior officer. Kirk, Spock and Bones are now a team similar to their TOS counterparts.

Enterprise (Hopefully refitted to Look better than the current incarnation) has just escaped some disaster and arrives in a distant alien star system. Like the episode tomorrow is yesterday, the ship stops in the upper atmosphere of a planet with two factions in a tense cold war(Think 1962). One of the factions is on the threshold of warp drive. Enterprise is severely damaged. No warp(And get rid of the new warp phenomenon. No Dune Space folds) or sub space communication. A part of the ship breaks away and takes out a building of the faction without warp drive. This faction believes the other side attacked them. They retaliate even though the other side denies it raising the possibility for all out war.

Once in orbit, the undetected Enterprise's crew sees the effect they've had. But they need to recover some technology which survived impact on the building. So they beam down disguised as natives, but are captured as enemy spies and later rescued. This heightens the tensions further. The side without warp tech detects Enterprise and believes its a secret warship created by their enemies and launches a full scale attack. The other side responds. So how does Kirk and crew save the day.
What would be the point of that specific story?

As much as I loathe Abramstrek, the scripts, while being incoherent messes, do have a point. Abramstrek 1 was about getting the gang together with a minor in-universe justification for the reboot. Abramstrek 2 is about putting the gang and Kirk's command ability to the test, making them ready for the 5-year mission.


Stories like that in the quote are fine for a TV show where you have 26 episodes per season, one episode per week. But is the story you come up with really worth to fill those rare 2 hours every 4 years?
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Old May 10 2013, 10:10 PM   #67
ConRefit79
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Re: All right, all you JJ-haters! Put your money where your mouth is!

JarodRussell wrote: View Post
What would be the point of that specific story?
As much as I loathe Abramstrek, the scripts, while being incoherent messes, do have a point. Abramstrek 1 was about getting the gang together with a minor in-universe justification for the reboot. Abramstrek 2 is about putting the gang and Kirk's command ability to the test, making them ready for the 5-year mission.

Stories like that in the quote are fine for a TV show where you have 26 episodes per season, one episode per week. But is the story you come up with really worth to fill those rare 2 hours every 4 years?
Star Trek is supposed to reflect important issues we're dealing with today. Well, the building being taken out, think 911. The threat of nuclear war. Trust issues between different cultures with advanced technology. I enjoyed 13 days, even though we know how it ends. So you still have Sci Fi , action and FX and drama. But you get way from single villians. Now the villian is war.
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Old May 10 2013, 10:17 PM   #68
CDR6
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Re: All right, all you JJ-haters! Put your money where your mouth is!

Kruezerman wrote: View Post
CDR6 wrote: View Post
I see your challenge and raise you the members of this BBS. From what I have seen and read here in this BBS, there is sufficient talent right here to best JJ and the Bad Robot group.
Translation: I want to return to the Prime Universe and "cerebral exploration."

Bull. All of this is utter bull, you people want Trek movies to be something they never were.
The old Trek universe is a thing of the past, love it, respect it, but build on it's beginnings...definitely! JJ did some good things with his take on Trek, like the Kelvin for instance. In my film(s) all of Trek would be on the table for use. The Chuckverse (if I may) would be a little more beef and a little less flash. (Having nothing to do with lens flair).

The story(s) visuals would be new and at the same time the audience would be comfortable with what they see. Again taking page from Roddenberry, we would not revisit earth, instead we would be "out there" somewhere, at work. From JJ we will borrow the Kelvin-ish style design for our principal ship in the story. Pacing must be brisk, but so fast that the audience is lost along the way.

Our story begins at a federation starbase not far from... oh say...Risa. The story centers around a young female Commander who is about to receive her first vessel from none other than Admiral Nogura (the chief of Star Fleet Operations). Who is in the area on an inspection tour of the sector.

Our Commander anxiously awaits her first command, which she anticipates to be modern "up to date" ship of the line. Instead she draws "The Bucket", the tired and old U.S.S. Langley. Her mission? Proceed to Sherman's planet, take command of the Langley and skipper her back to the yard at Utopia Planita for survey and decommissioning...

Regards,
Chuck
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Old May 10 2013, 11:20 PM   #69
beamMe
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Re: All right, all you JJ-haters! Put your money where your mouth is!

mos6507 wrote: View Post
beamMe wrote: View Post
Are the writer of the TOS novels just as "pathetically uncreative" and "can't [...] exert a little effort"?
The writers don't have to cast them, build sets, do FX, etc... Your imagination can fill in the blanks and make it 1969 all over again. Total apples and oranges. Plus, TOS novel book sales wouldn't come close to a new TV series. It's niche.
Still, why don't you demand of them that they exert a little more creative effort and create a new set of characters, a new crew for each new novel?

Don't you think there are reasons why people like to go back to those original TOS characters?

mos6507 wrote: View Post
beamMe wrote: View Post
And now they can watch them have new adventures where anything is possible.
Anything's possible, but not necessarily plausible or desirable. I prefer my Enterprise not to be a submarine and Spock not to have Vader "Noooo!!!!!" moments of farce.
Your Enterprise, of course, already did operate as a "submarine" and Spock had more than one emotional outburst.
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Old May 11 2013, 12:43 AM   #70
Hober Mallow
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Re: All right, all you JJ-haters! Put your money where your mouth is!

mos6507 wrote: View Post
beamMe wrote: View Post
Star Trek is a different beast altogether. Kirk, Spock, McCoy are the iconic characters of Star Trek. As fans we may like all the others too but they all stand in the shadows of those original characters.
I think if you can't get away from having to have Kirk, Spock, McCoy, then Trek should not continue.
That's just silly.

There's a HUGE universe in Trek, but to keep going back to the well and endlessly recast/remake/reimagine/recycle those three like they are comic book icons is pathetically uncreative.

Obviously it takes a lot of work to come up with new characters that can match the popularity of the originals, but darn it, why can't writers exert a little effort??? Someone had to conceive of Kirk, Spock, and McCoy in the first place. It didn't just spawn out of the ether. You just get cracking and come up with something new.
Nonsense. That's like saying any future Sherlock Holmes project should *not* include Sherlock Holmes and Dr. Watson, but completely new characters. The British SHERLOCK series is a good modern take on Arthur Conan Doyle's character.

Sticking with Star Trek's main characters doesn't by necessity equate to being uncreative anymore than starting a series with a new captain named Janeway on a new ship called Voyager makes that series in any way "creative." One of the few things Abrams has done right has been to go back to Kirk and Spock. No one but a handful of Trek geeks is going to care about yet another captain, another crew, another starship.

A proper producer and a good writer could come up with a fresh new take on Star Trek without jettisoning the main characters the way the SHERLOCK producers did. Hell, maybe BBC should do the next Trek series.
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Old May 13 2013, 08:12 PM   #71
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Re: All right, all you JJ-haters! Put your money where your mouth is!

I guess we're all out of ideas.
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Old May 14 2013, 01:36 AM   #72
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Re: All right, all you JJ-haters! Put your money where your mouth is!

The British SHERLOCK series is a good modern take on Arthur Conan Doyle's character.
They should get that guy in Star Trek somehow!
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Old May 14 2013, 01:56 AM   #73
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Re: All right, all you JJ-haters! Put your money where your mouth is!

beamMe wrote: View Post
Still, why don't you demand of them that they exert a little more creative effort and create a new set of characters, a new crew for each new novel?
Some of these analogies are just plain "off".

Kirk, Spock, and McCoy got their start on television with actors that became synonymous with the role.

They are not comic book heroes like Batman, Superman, or literary figures like Sherlock Holmes. Sure, you can try to lump them all together, but it's not a perfect analogy.

So when it comes to novels, you're talking about taking something that was originally visual, that is embedded in our heads already, and going to print, rather than the reverse, like with Batman, or James Bond. When you read a novel, you get to use your own imagination to build the production design. Unless the author is writing in lens-flares, you can make it as authentic as you want to the original. There isn't as much threat to authenticity vs. a reboot.

Does it then surprise you that some people have a hard time accepting reboots?

Then on top of this the creator (who should know what he's doing) saw fit to continue with TNG rather than Phase II, and we went on to have several spin-off series that all did pretty well. Sure, it reached a point of diminishing returns, but to completely shrug off anything but the holy trinity of Kirk, Spock, and McCoy ignores the long TNG-era run, which included theatrical hits like First Contact.

You're saying that anything post-TOS has no pop-culture resonance whatsoever? That's not true at all. Is it true that TOS has the most resonance? Yes. Which is why it's being done, because the bean-counters go for the lowest-common-denominator only. But in the process they ignore huge swaths of the Star Trek universe that has been built over the years.

beamMe wrote: View Post
Don't you think there are reasons why people like to go back to those original TOS characters?
Sure, but the franchise is almost half a century old. Maybe it's time to do something besides just reboot and plow over the same ground according to whatever the current popcorn-movie trends may require.

beamMe wrote: View Post
Your Enterprise, of course, already did operate as a "submarine" and Spock had more than one emotional outburst.
Flying through an amoeba and Spock being under duress through things like Pon Farr, a mind-meld, or a virus, are not the same.
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Old May 14 2013, 04:07 AM   #74
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Re: All right, all you JJ-haters! Put your money where your mouth is!

mos6507 wrote: View Post
Does it then surprise you that some people have a hard time accepting reboots?
I've been watching since 1975 and have had no issue with the reboot beyond some story elements I feel didn't work. There are many old school folks here who have no issue with the reboot.
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Old May 14 2013, 08:19 AM   #75
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Re: All right, all you JJ-haters! Put your money where your mouth is!

I recall the novel Traitor Winds being really good fun. They could have tweaked that story for NuTrek with similr results but that turns Trek into conspiracy thriller. That might have been good fun!
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