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Deep Space Nine What We Left Behind, we will always have here.

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Old May 9 2013, 11:57 PM   #16
mythme
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Re: The Martok Appreciation Thread

For me what best demonstrates how Martok was written so genuinely Klingon is in the finale; while Sisko and Admiral Ross refuse to toast their taking of Cardassia because of the mass slaughter that has taken place, Martok relishes in his victory, chuckles at the humans "ethics" and guzzles his bloodwine. I love it when aliens don't conform to humanity's own sense of morality.
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Old May 10 2013, 01:07 AM   #17
horatio83
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Re: The Martok Appreciation Thread

After TNG played this game of an emigrant who takes the traditions of his own culture more seriously than the people who never went away, of Worf the hyper-honourable Klingon vs. all the scheming, Romulan-like Klingons, it was simply necessary to have a Klingon character who does not match either of these extremes.
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Old May 10 2013, 01:46 AM   #18
Ryva Brall
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Re: The Martok Appreciation Thread

horatio83 wrote: View Post
After TNG played this game of an emigrant who takes the traditions of his own culture more seriously than the people who never went away, of Worf the hyper-honourable Klingon vs. all the scheming, Romulan-like Klingons, it was simply necessary to have a Klingon character who does not match either of these extremes.
That's true. It was past time for a Klingon who wasn't a stereotype. Martok was a well-rounded character, with a nice balance of all the Klingon traits. And he didn't struggle constantly with his identity, like Worf. And B'Elanna, for that matter.
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Old May 10 2013, 09:20 AM   #19
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Re: The Martok Appreciation Thread

The writers did a really smart thing (helped not inconsiderably by Hertzler) with Once More.... They put Martok in opposition to one of Trek's most-admired elder figures and let him vent his class prejudices. Yet he just comes away even more as a rounded, fallible character . That said, the class thing may not be as interesting to non-Brits.
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Old May 10 2013, 03:26 PM   #20
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Re: The Martok Appreciation Thread

mythme wrote: View Post
I love it when aliens don't conform to humanity's own sense of morality.
Totally agree with you there. I hate when aliens show human morals and ethics, they're far more interesting when their behaviour is more 'alien' by our standards (Garak is another great example of this).
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Old May 10 2013, 09:07 PM   #21
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Re: The Martok Appreciation Thread

How did I miss this thread? I absolutely LOVE Martok!

lurok wrote: View Post
I toast this thread with a barrel of bloodwine! Martok made Worf a better Klingon; and Hertzler made Dorn look good.

Agreed! Martok was a better "partner" for Worf than Jadzia when it came to character development. And as much as I love Worf's character Michael Dorn is not a strong actor but he plays well against Hertzler. I love dynamic between the Textbook Klingon vs. The Real World one.

mythme wrote: View Post
For me what best demonstrates how Martok was written so genuinely Klingon is in the finale; while Sisko and Admiral Ross refuse to toast their taking of Cardassia because of the mass slaughter that has taken place, Martok relishes in his victory, chuckles at the humans "ethics" and guzzles his bloodwine. I love it when aliens don't conform to humanity's own sense of morality.
Totally agree.

Ryva Brall wrote: View Post

To be honest, with Worf being as dead serious as he is, I always wondered what that jokester Jadzia saw in him.
I think that might be what made them work, because they are opposites. Opposites often make the most balanced couples, they bring each other to the middle.
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Old May 10 2013, 09:12 PM   #22
Oso Blanco
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Re: The Martok Appreciation Thread

Martok is the best Klingon ever! Hugely defined by J.G. Hertzler, who absolutely owned that role!
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Old May 10 2013, 09:19 PM   #23
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Re: The Martok Appreciation Thread

mythme wrote: View Post
For me what best demonstrates how Martok was written so genuinely Klingon is in the finale; while Sisko and Admiral Ross refuse to toast their taking of Cardassia because of the mass slaughter that has taken place, Martok relishes in his victory, chuckles at the humans "ethics" and guzzles his bloodwine. I love it when aliens don't conform to humanity's own sense of morality.
I always thought Sisko and Ross were out of line. Not wanting to share the toast is one thing, but pouring it on the ground and turning their backs is pretty insulting to Martok.
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Old May 11 2013, 03:28 AM   #24
LiLiKitty
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Re: The Martok Appreciation Thread

One of my favorite DS9 moments is when Martok tells the tale of the demise of his pet Targ - "filthy, mangy beast"! The writing is spot on, and Hertzler's performance is terrific.

Also, I love when Martok acknowledges Nog's courage (I forget which episode.) He proves how wise he is.
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Old May 11 2013, 08:09 PM   #25
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Re: The Martok Appreciation Thread

He's my favorite as well. A working class Klingon made good.
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Old May 11 2013, 08:32 PM   #26
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Re: The Martok Appreciation Thread

Silvercrest wrote: View Post
mythme wrote: View Post
For me what best demonstrates how Martok was written so genuinely Klingon is in the finale; while Sisko and Admiral Ross refuse to toast their taking of Cardassia because of the mass slaughter that has taken place, Martok relishes in his victory, chuckles at the humans "ethics" and guzzles his bloodwine. I love it when aliens don't conform to humanity's own sense of morality.
I always thought Sisko and Ross were out of line. Not wanting to share the toast is one thing, but pouring it on the ground and turning their backs is pretty insulting to Martok.
Yeah, where I come from, if someone hands you a drink and you pour it on the ground, that is an insult. Politely refusing would've been better. I thought Martok was quite considerate not to take that personally. But he always demonstrated a knack for dealing with other races. Not kicking Nog's butt that one episode was another example.
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Old May 11 2013, 08:49 PM   #27
horatio83
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Re: The Martok Appreciation Thread

I don't think that Klingons are that sensitive about table manners. In my opinion the point of this scene was to clearly show that while Klingons and the UFP are allies their ethics still differ tremendously. I also think that it thus showed of how people from two very different cultures could get along without political correctness. It sketched out third way between what we have today, culture wars and political correctness.
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Old May 13 2013, 01:07 PM   #28
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Re: The Martok Appreciation Thread

mythme wrote: View Post
For me what best demonstrates how Martok was written so genuinely Klingon is in the finale; while Sisko and Admiral Ross refuse to toast their taking of Cardassia because of the mass slaughter that has taken place, Martok relishes in his victory, chuckles at the humans "ethics" and guzzles his bloodwine. I love it when aliens don't conform to humanity's own sense of morality.
That is exactly the scene that I was thinking of. Just when you thought Martok might be getting a bit too 'human' amidst all the Dominion-squashing, he revels in the realities of war as only a Klingon could. His arguments with the Romulans at briefings were always fantastic too - so easy to wind up and antagonise!

I also loved his relationship with Sisko. Those guys were brilliant in their scenes together, such honest dialogue. Two working class, middle-aged men who really understood each other's positions and responsibilities, as soldiers, as leaders, as fathers, as husbands. I loved them both.

Incidentally, has anyone read JG Hertzler's Martok novels. The adventure is a bit crazy in places and Martok is presented as a bit of a mythic hero sort of Klingon but they are a damn good read if you ever liked Martok and Klingons.
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Old May 14 2013, 03:33 AM   #29
Ryva Brall
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Re: The Martok Appreciation Thread

Whaaat? I didn't know Hertzler had written novels! I officially fail as a Trek fan.
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Old May 14 2013, 06:57 AM   #30
R. Star
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Re: The Martok Appreciation Thread

He wrote two novels titled the Left Hand of Destiny, part 1 and 2. They were alright. While they were stereotypical in the way that Martok and Worf are about the only two honorable Klingons, it really gets weird with the villains and the means they go to. Basically the short version of the plot is some shady people from Martok's past try and overthrow him as Chancellor.

I wouldn't put it at the top of a recommended reading list, especially compared to the rest of the DS9 relaunch novels but they're alright. Hertzler does bring in a lot of plot elements for better and worse that were only briefly touched upon in the series like the Emperor, Martok's son Drax and his wife, the Negh'Var, the Hurq and other such things.
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