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Go Back   The Trek BBS > Star Trek Movies > Star Trek Movies XI+

Star Trek Movies XI+ Discuss J.J. Abrams' rebooted Star Trek here.

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Old May 10 2013, 06:43 AM   #76
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Re: Is everything before the destruction of the kelvin exactly the sam

throwback wrote: View Post
For Data's head to be there, TNG has to be akin to what we saw. But is that possible with what we are seeing in the reboot? The history of that series includes elements from the prime universe TOS ("Relics", "Journey to Babel", "The Naked Time", etc). This TOS has been irrevocably altered.
Sorry, this is the trap of time travel. You're suggesting that Nero's incursion altered the eventual "path" of TOS (and by proxy TNG), so Data will never travel back in time. BUT, if Nero altered TOS, then Spock may never become an Ambassador, and will never work with the Romulans to save Romulus, and the black hole will never be created, and Nero will never travel back in time, and .... ERROR. ERROR. DOES NOT COMPUTE. [Smoke billowing from ears]

So, you have to go with the "timeline divergence" theory. Everything before that point is as it is -- INCLUDING Kirk "killing" Edith Keeler, Gary Seven, Riker and Geordi helping Cochrane, Data's head in 1800s San Francisco, etc...
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Old May 10 2013, 09:06 AM   #77
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Re: Is everything before the destruction of the kelvin exactly the sam

It's a total reboot.

The alternate timeline jazz is an olive branch ; so as to not freak out the diehard fans (and they're going ballistic about it, anyway!).

I think Nero and Old Spock travelled not only back in time, but in dimensions as well. The Abramsverse is a parallel universe, in the 2250s. It explains all the apparent continuity hiccups in one fell swoop.
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Old May 10 2013, 09:09 AM   #78
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Re: Is everything before the destruction of the kelvin exactly the sam

DonIago wrote: View Post
Exactly. If two alternate universes are essentially identical then why -wouldn't- essentially the same events, including parties traveling into the past of other essentially identical timelines, occur?

Similarly, it can be argued that there's multiple versions of the Mirror Universe. In some the Terran Empire is brought down by the Klingon-Cardassian alliance as per the televised episodes, while in others you end up with a "Dark Mirror" scenario where the Empire endures at least as long as TNG.

Or one variant of the Mirror Universe where the Klingon/Cardassian Alliance have cloaking devices; and another universe where they don't (The Emperor's New Cloak)
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Old May 10 2013, 11:27 AM   #79
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Re: Is everything before the destruction of the kelvin exactly the sam

T'Girl wrote: View Post
WarpFactorZ wrote: View Post
Let's not get carried away here. Spock and Nero time-traveled from their era to their past.
One of the problem I had with the movie is, Nero travel backward, arrived in his own past, and created a alternate timeline.

Spock traveled backwards and didn't arrive in his own past, he arrived in the alternate timeline.

Shouldn't Spock have arrived, when he did arrive, in the past of his own timeline? It seem to me that he should have.
Except it was the same anomaly he entered and it is conceivable it led into the same alternate universe, he just took one exit later.

beamMe wrote: View Post
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Or maybe that mission never happens and as soon as the Narada exits the black hole Data's head disappears from the cave.
Not possible, since the prime timeline still exists even after the Narada goes back. It creates an alternate timeline which branches off from that point, and which does not overwrite the existing one.

And since it is highly unlikely there will ever be an alternate Data (due to the butterfly effect), then in the Abrams timeline, nobody will ever know whose head that is.
There can't be a Data-head in a cave in this timeline. None of the time-travelling that happens in TOS, TNG, DS9 and VOY will ever have happend.

The Narada arrived in a universe/timeline that was already different/changed because of her arrival; the changes "rippled" back in time before Nero and his crew caused any changes because their actions prevented all of the time-travelling we've seen in the other shows movies.

The universe/Federation/Starfleet that is the home of Kelvin and her crew is/was always the world that happens/would have happened without the interference of our oldTrek heroes.

God, I've watched too much Doctor Who.
Give this guy the Captain Annorax Award for successful timeline manipulation.
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Old May 10 2013, 11:29 AM   #80
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Re: Is everything before the destruction of the kelvin exactly the sam

I am not Spock wrote: View Post
It's a total reboot.

The alternate timeline jazz is an olive branch ; so as to not freak out the diehard fans (and they're going ballistic about it, anyway!).

I think Nero and Old Spock travelled not only back in time, but in dimensions as well. The Abramsverse is a parallel universe, in the 2250s. It explains all the apparent continuity hiccups in one fell swoop.
Except...



Yes, IRL it's a reboot, but it ties into the old at least as well as any of the other series' and movies (which is to say, a LOT of willing suspension of disbelief is required)
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Old May 10 2013, 11:35 AM   #81
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Re: Is everything before the destruction of the kelvin exactly the sam

WarpFactorZ wrote: View Post
throwback wrote: View Post
For Data's head to be there, TNG has to be akin to what we saw. But is that possible with what we are seeing in the reboot? The history of that series includes elements from the prime universe TOS ("Relics", "Journey to Babel", "The Naked Time", etc). This TOS has been irrevocably altered.
Sorry, this is the trap of time travel. You're suggesting that Nero's incursion altered the eventual "path" of TOS (and by proxy TNG), so Data will never travel back in time. BUT, if Nero altered TOS, then Spock may never become an Ambassador, and will never work with the Romulans to save Romulus, and the black hole will never be created, and Nero will never travel back in time, and .... ERROR. ERROR. DOES NOT COMPUTE. [Smoke billowing from ears]

So, you have to go with the "timeline divergence" theory. Everything before that point is as it is -- INCLUDING Kirk "killing" Edith Keeler, Gary Seven, Riker and Geordi helping Cochrane, Data's head in 1800s San Francisco, etc...
Both Nero and Spock were already caught in the black hole and thus protected from the changes that occurred when the Narada went back first.
If you don't accept that, then First Contact too wouldn't have worked; there the Enterprise was caught in that time vortex/hole and protected from what the Borg did, while the whole universe they knew was replaced with that Borg-ified one.
City on the Edge of Forever too wouldn't have worked if Kirk and Co hadn't been protected from the changes McCoy caused.

So, my idea may be convoluted and complicated, but it makes some (Doctor Who-style of) sense and could give an explanation for the already apparent differences before the Narada destroys the Kelvin.

God, why couldn't they have made a straight reboot. This would have spared us all this convoluted shit.
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Old May 10 2013, 03:50 PM   #82
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Re: Is everything before the destruction of the kelvin exactly the sam

The Data's Head resolution really depends on whether you believe that the '09 timeline "branched" off the existing one, or whether you believe that that timeline was always running in parallel to the Prime timeline and Nero and Spock just jumped tracks.

If the former, then the head should be there (but that raises some physics questions involving one head becoming two (or more)), if the latter, then it shouldn't be there...unless a TNG crew also jumped tracks to this timeline at some point...
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Old May 10 2013, 03:52 PM   #83
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Re: Is everything before the destruction of the kelvin exactly the sam

As I said, the past of "Time's Arrow" is common to both the prime and Abrams timelines. Therefore, anything and anyone from either timeline can travel to it. Data's head comes from the prime future, and (up until 2233) that prime future can still arise from it. Therefore the head must logically still be there.

For Data's head to vanish from the cave would mean that there is a version of the 19th century that can ONLY lead to the Abrams timeline, which is of course not the case.
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Old May 10 2013, 03:57 PM   #84
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Re: Is everything before the destruction of the kelvin exactly the sam

What you've just said is exactly what I covered under the theory that the '09 timeline "branched" instead of always existing in parallel to the Prime timeline and being identical up to the point of Nero's incursion.

There could be an infinitude of timelines that are all essentially identical to both the Prime timeline and the '09 timeline of course.

Data's head wouldn't "vanish" from the cave; it would never have been there to begin with. And AFAIK we can't know whether in the '09 timeline we saw it ever was there because we have no clear evidence of temporal divergence that could be traced to those events.
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Old May 10 2013, 04:07 PM   #85
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Re: Is everything before the destruction of the kelvin exactly the sam

There's also alt-Tasha Yar (from Yesterday's Enterprise) to consider. She didn't vanish from the Enterprise-C when the alternate timeline featuring her was erased from existence, did she?
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Old May 10 2013, 04:23 PM   #86
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Re: Is everything before the destruction of the kelvin exactly the sam

Mr. Laser Beam wrote: View Post
As I said, the past of "Time's Arrow" is common to both the prime and Abrams timelines. Therefore, anything and anyone from either timeline can travel to it. Data's head comes from the prime future, and (up until 2233) that prime future can still arise from it. Therefore the head must logically still be there.

For Data's head to vanish from the cave would mean that there is a version of the 19th century that can ONLY lead to the Abrams timeline, which is of course not the case.
But that is exactly the case, if my idea of the changes the Narada causes is correct.
And since this is all fiction, and unless my idea is contradicted by a future film, I think I'll stick with it for now.
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Old May 10 2013, 04:28 PM   #87
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Re: Is everything before the destruction of the kelvin exactly the sam

Mr. Laser Beam wrote: View Post
There's also alt-Tasha Yar (from Yesterday's Enterprise) to consider. She didn't vanish from the Enterprise-C when the alternate timeline featuring her was erased from existence, did she?
No, like Spock, she travelled into a different timeline/universe.
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Old May 10 2013, 04:31 PM   #88
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Re: Is everything before the destruction of the kelvin exactly the sam

^ Incorrect. Tasha and the Ent-C travelled into the past of the *same* timeline. But since the Ent-C's sacrifice was already a part of history, they didn't create an alternate timeline; merely fulfilled the existing one. (Nero and Spock Prime, on the other hand, created a branching timeline, since their actions were not a part of history.)
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Old May 10 2013, 05:21 PM   #89
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Re: Is everything before the destruction of the kelvin exactly the sam

Mr. Laser Beam wrote: View Post
^ Incorrect. Tasha and the Ent-C travelled into the past of the *same* timeline. But since the Ent-C's sacrifice was already a part of history, they didn't create an alternate timeline; merely fulfilled the existing one.
That's not quite right, either. A better description is that Tasha traveled into her own past and then influenced events to become the normal TNG timeline.

But all that's moot. Just because time travel worked one way in one episode, or even in many episodes, it doesn't follow that it must work the same way in every episode.

Consider The City on the Edge of Forever versus Yesteryear. Both use the same Guardian of Forever. In City, time is restored to its proper shape. But in Yy, everything is the same, except a pet dies, so apparently it's not quite the same timeline in the end. One could argue that different parameters in effect caused the differences in how time was fixed, and I'd agree in principle that that notion is fine.

Then there's the red-headed stepchild of TOS time travel: All Our Yesterdays. I've seen fans dismiss the regression that Spock begins to undergo as absurd. I, on the other hand, consider it a breath of fresh air, because of its originality. Again "different parameters", in this case in the however the Atavachron works, versus other methods of time travel, suffice to "explain things".

(Nero and Spock Prime, on the other hand, created a branching timeline, since their actions were not a part of history.)
How do you know that "different parameters" don't exist in the case under discussion? You don't. You all are trying to tie the hands of hypothetical authors to conform to the limitations that you consider to have force. The actual authors of future episodes might not consider themselves constrained by such limitations; perhaps they have something to say that in their view requires the introduction of "different parameters". Maybe Red Matter has weird properties.

Who knows? Perhaps all the differences in the JJverse are due to an interconnected web of temporal-mechanical influences crisscrossing back and forth throughout the Prime universe that becomes unraveled when Nero's lightening storm opens up.
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Old May 10 2013, 05:22 PM   #90
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Re: Is everything before the destruction of the kelvin exactly the sam

Mr. Laser Beam wrote: View Post
^ Incorrect. Tasha and the Ent-C travelled into the past of the *same* timeline. But since the Ent-C's sacrifice was already a part of history, they didn't create an alternate timeline; merely fulfilled the existing one. (Nero and Spock Prime, on the other hand, created a branching timeline, since their actions were not a part of history.)
No. When the Enterprise-C fell trough that time-rift a new timeline/universe was created. One in which Armus never killed Tasha (and Data's head never ends up in a San Francisco cave).
We get a short glimpse into that universe, since we basically follow the course of the Enterprise-C from the view-point of the Enterprise-D.
When the E-C returns to her own timeline/universe through that rift this war-with-the-Klingons-tl/u doesn't get wiped out. It continues on.
But we follow the E-C back to her own tl/u to the time we left it at the beginning of the episode. There all this has indeed already happened.
This means that when we first see Tasha in Encounter at Farpoint her alternate-timeline-ego has already died on Romulus.
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