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Go Back   The Trek BBS > Star Trek Movies > Star Trek Movies XI+

Star Trek Movies XI+ Discuss J.J. Abrams' rebooted Star Trek here.

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Old May 10 2013, 04:14 PM   #46
F. King Daniel
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Re: Where's the equality?

Or the decon rays from the old Gold Key comics!
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Old May 10 2013, 04:17 PM   #47
SalvorHardin
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Re: Where's the equality?

Gel is better.
It involves rubbing and stuff.
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Old May 10 2013, 04:26 PM   #48
tmosler
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Re: directors cut of into darkness

I am talking more along the lines of the motion picture directors cut that improved it a lot. But i think that it wouldnt cost very much because all they have to do is edit one scene
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Old May 10 2013, 04:28 PM   #49
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Re: directors cut of into darkness

tmosler wrote: View Post
I am talking more along the lines of the motion picture directors cut that improved it a lot. But i think that it wouldnt cost very much because all they have to do is edit one scene
It's not a matter of cost or difficulty.
If they disliked it and wanted to cut it they would have done so in the editing room before the movie came out.
It's not going anywhere.
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Old May 10 2013, 04:31 PM   #50
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Re: Feeling dejected *spoilers*

AntonyF wrote: View Post
I did cringe when it happened, but it seems that's when I started to switch off. I'm not sure why I'm so against it... other than we've been hearing it for two years. It's just such old news, and they've denied it again and again (Simon Pegg: "It’s not Khan. That’s a myth."). So this doesn't feel like a surprise, it feels like a trick. And it feels like an OLD trick, something we've heard about for years.
You know, if a company lied to you about the content of a product, you'd sue it or boycott it. In entertainment, people are blatantly lied to, and they suck it up.
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Old May 10 2013, 04:39 PM   #51
I Am Groot
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Re: Nibiru

Bry_Sinclair wrote: View Post
Secondly, the crews actions on the planet (stopping the volcano) is in itself a violation of the Prime Directive, as they are interfering with the natural development of that species. As unpleasant as it may be to allow a race to die, had the Enterprise not been there the volcano would have erupted and that would be the end of them, by stopping the volcano they interruped the natural development of the native species.
The more they avoid the immoral and abominable TNG interpretation of the Prime Directive that it's better to let a species die than to interfere in their development by saving them the better. What possible difference does interfering make if the species won't have any further development thanks to being extinct?

They think they're avoiding playing God in TNG by letting nature take its course, but who's to say having other more technologically advanced cultures --preferably secretly-- protecting species from destruction isn't part of the "natural order" (whatever that means) itself? They evolved naturally to that state, and they have already made countless changes and interfered with the course of development of the universe simply by existing. That's the way things have been happening for billions of years. Earth (and other Federation worlds) was certainly no stranger to having overseers and protectors from future/more technologically advanced cultures looking out for preserving species or the planet itself, so it's amazingly hypocritical to deny that service to other species when Humans and the Federation are put in the same position.

It also makes the arrogant assumption that species are too primitive or irrational or stupid to handle to truth if it's explained to them, in the cases where you have no choice but to reveal yourselves to save them. While that might be true sometimes, the PD's blanket zero tolerance policy is irrational and stupid itself. We get a glimpse of that attitude in the TNG episode where the villager kills himself upon exposure to the truth after Worf's brother saved him, and people act as if Nikolai was some kind of monster as a result, when if the Enterprise crew were left to their devices the villager and all of his people would be dead anyway.

The parts of the Prime Directive that say you shouldn't needlessly expose a culture to future technological advancements that can be abused or to social customs that can alter their own, and that you shouldn't interfere in internal disputes (so long as they don't threaten the entire species) are conscientious and reasonable. But when it's used as an excuse to sit back and do nothing as a species is wiped out by a natural or technological disaster or war it's disgusting and arrogant and playing God every bit as much as if you were to interfere directly. Good riddance to it.
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Old May 10 2013, 04:44 PM   #52
ConRefit79
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Re: Nibiru

I may be wrong, but it seems like all the episodes where TOS Kirk bends the Prime Directive, the natives had already been contaminated by the Feds or some other culture.
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Old May 10 2013, 04:44 PM   #53
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Re: Nibiru

If you save a culture from a volcano by coming down in a big space ship, you don't really save it. It dies that day, because that event will spark a religion, and we all know how much that transforms a culture.

Imagine a close relative is dying, and you could only save him by wiping his entire memory and personality in the process. He/She would be alive, but at the same time completely gone.



So yes, the proper choice would have been to let nuSpock die there and keep the Abramsprise under water, because that way the culture would have been saved without a GOD coming down to them saving them.
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Old May 10 2013, 04:46 PM   #54
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Re: Nibiru

Bry_Sinclair wrote: View Post
I saw STID last night and have been musing on a few things, a couple of which deal with the planet of Nibiru at the start of the film.

If you've not seen the film, please turn back now.

Firstly, why is the Enterprise underwater? How many times has a ship successfully conducted observations and away missions from standard orbit? Why would they need to complicate the entire operation and risk exposing the ship to the inhabitants by taking it all the way through the atmosphere and then into the ocean? It baffled me.
I'm sure there was an explanation given why the ship had to be close - obviously I wasn't paying close attention because I can't remember.

Bry_Sinclair wrote: View Post
Secondly, the crews actions on the planet (stopping the volcano) is in itself a violation of the Prime Directive, as they are interfering with the natural development of that species. As unpleasant as it may be to allow a race to die, had the Enterprise not been there the volcano would have erupted and that would be the end of them, by stopping the volcano they interruped the natural development of the native species--which is far worse than them just seeing a starship rise from the water.
Yes, that's what Spock and Pike said.

But then if a natural disaster happens here somewhere on Earth today, does the rest of the the countries not try to help?

The PD is, if applied with this bureaucratic word-for-word mentality, as cold and inhumane as "the needs of the many..." is dangerous if applied blindly without reflection to every situation.
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Old May 10 2013, 04:47 PM   #55
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Re: Nibiru

I hated how in TNG they'd let a civilization die out even if the Enterprise could save them without them ever knowing about Enterprise. Even so, is it really terrible for a civilization or small part of it to worship the Enterprise like a God if they can save them from total annihilation? Eventually it'll just be a myth, think of how many religions and Gods have died out in our history.
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Old May 10 2013, 04:50 PM   #56
JarodRussell
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Re: Nibiru

Phily B wrote: View Post
I hated how in TNG they'd let a civilization die out even if the Enterprise could save them without them ever knowing about Enterprise. Even so, is it really terrible for a civilization or small part of it to worship the Enterprise like a God if they can save them from total annihilation? Eventually it'll just be a myth, think of how many religions and Gods have died out in our history.
In TNG: Pen Pals, they eventually did save them. And in the other episode, we see what happens to the culture when they witness "divine intervention". So I think TNG was pretty balanced and coherent on that issue.

A carpenter with 30 followers somehow made it into the main religion for our planet.

ANY visible intervention is bad intervention. You cannot foresee the consequences.
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Old May 10 2013, 04:50 PM   #57
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Re: Nibiru

Phily B wrote: View Post
I hated how in TNG they'd let a civilization die out even if the Enterprise could save them without them ever knowing about Enterprise. Even so, is it really terrible for a civilization or small part of it to worship the Enterprise like a God if they can save them from total annihilation? Eventually it'll just be a myth, think of how many religions and Gods have died out in our history.
The problem is you have no idea what effect saving said culture will have. Lots of seemingly feel good ideas often have unintended consequences.
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Old May 10 2013, 04:52 PM   #58
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Re: Nibiru

JarodRussell wrote: View Post
Phily B wrote: View Post
I hated how in TNG they'd let a civilization die out even if the Enterprise could save them without them ever knowing about Enterprise. Even so, is it really terrible for a civilization or small part of it to worship the Enterprise like a God if they can save them from total annihilation? Eventually it'll just be a myth, think of how many religions and Gods have died out in our history.
In TNG: Pen Pals, they eventually did save them. And in the other episode, we see what happens to the culture when they witness "divine intervention". So I think TNG was pretty balanced and coherent on that issue.
In Pen Pals, they helped because she asked for help. Although, that seems like a lame reason. Unless somewhere in the episode she knew Data was an ET.
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Old May 10 2013, 04:56 PM   #59
JarodRussell
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Re: Nibiru

Now if there was an asteroid on a collision course with Earth, I wouldn't expect an alien civilization, no matter how evolved and civilized, to save us. But if we sent out a distress call, and they'd react to it by blowing the asteroid up, that would be nice.
If they react to it by blowing the asteroid up and then presented a bill, that would be ugly.
And if they react to it by blowing the asteroid up and then ask us to worship them, that would be horrible.


That brings up an interesting question. Is there ANY NASA protocol that specifies a distress signal for catastrophes? I mean just in case there MIGHT be a UFO out there? It would be the scientist version of a prayer, I guess.
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Old May 10 2013, 04:57 PM   #60
Mal
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Re: Nibiru

Bry_Sinclair wrote: View Post
Firstly, why is the Enterprise underwater?
...
It baffled me.
As Scotty said, it was a stupid idea. And Pike said, Kirk is full of stupid ideas.


Bry_Sinclair wrote: View Post
Secondly, the crews actions on the planet (stopping the volcano) is in itself a violation of the Prime Directive, as they are interfering with the natural development of that species. As unpleasant as it may be to allow a race to die, had the Enterprise not been there the volcano would have erupted and that would be the end of them, by stopping the volcano they interruped the natural development of the native species...
We're dealing with a universe in which they failed to save Vulcan. I think that changes the way our characters - especially Spock - feel about life.

I remember when 9/11 happened. Part of us just wanted everything to go back to normal. And part of us keep saying "everything is different." But the truth was somewhere in between.

Remember, this is still very early in Starfleet's space-exploration. According to the ST:ID, this is the first 5 year mission ever. Which kind of makes me think that either ENT never happened (happy days!), or it was "cancelled" after four years

The point being, Spock couldn't save his people. He isn't just going to sit around and let some other race suffer the same fate. And his captain - Kirk - is cool with breaking the rules. So there is literally no way to stop them. Except by taking away their ship. Which is what Pike did. But that lasted what, five minutes?
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