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Go Back   The Trek BBS > Star Trek Movies > Star Trek Movies XI+

Star Trek Movies XI+ Discuss J.J. Abrams' rebooted Star Trek here.

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Old May 9 2013, 11:31 PM   #16
beamMe
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Re: Torpedoes (XII spoilers)

Count Zero wrote: View Post
I don't think anyone can survive that impact inside a torpedo. If the torpedoes had been fired and actually crashed on Kronos the people inside would have died. That's why I entertained the idea of Admiral Marcus trying to get rid of the evidence that way.
But I'm not sure how far the torpedoes would have gotten without propulsion systems so if they had been fired they might have floated around in space and there would have been the risk of the Enterprise crew investigating the malfunction and discovering the Augments inside.
Which is why Admiral Marcus would have to make sure that the Enterprise gets destroyed by the Klingons. To me, the warp core malfunction pointed in that direction.

But it's simpler to assume the Admiral didn't know about Khan's crew inside the torpedoes.
Didn't Khan say at one point that he put them in the torpedoes, or am I remembering stuff I think I remember?


Count Zero wrote: View Post
beamMe wrote: View Post
I don't really remember, but I think Kirk told him, yes.
But I also don't think the revelation that Khan tried to get himself and his people out of Marcus' grasp came as much of a shock to the good admiral.
True. But it would have been interesting if this aspect had been played out more. I felt that 'lack of information' or 'misinformation' was kind of a theme in this movie. There were several pivotal moments in the storyline where this played a role. If Kirk hadn't told Khan the exact number of torpedoes how would he have proceeded? If he had known that his crew was still alive and aboard Enteprise would Khan have crashed the Vengeance on Earth? How would Spock have acted if old Spock hadn't told him whatever it was he told him? And so on.
The more I think about the torpedoes the more puzzled I get. I have to see the movie again.

I don't think Khan would have crashed the Vengeance if he had know about his people (I think he tried to take the Enterprise out with that manoeuvre too).
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Old May 9 2013, 11:48 PM   #17
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Re: Torpedoes (XII spoilers)

Or maybe, Marcus saw it as a way to get rid of a problem. It would be unlikely that the occupants would survive the impact, and hopefully you take out Kahn at the same time.
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Old May 9 2013, 11:52 PM   #18
Phily B
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Re: Torpedoes (XII spoilers)

That's kinda my thought, but then Khan's plan was kinda silly. Did he expect Starfleet to try track him and arrest him? If Kirk had just fired ze missiles at Kronos then Khan would probably be toast. But then Khan's plan makes sense again...because there is no way he could've expected that!

But if Khan put them in the missiles, then what his end plan? Carol seemed interested in the missiles to the point she got on to the Enterprise and said it was because of her father rather than anyone else.

I dunno. I can sorta make sense of it in my head, it could be either.
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Old May 10 2013, 12:10 AM   #19
anotherdemon
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Re: Torpedoes (XII spoilers)

It doesn't seem like there was much in the way of a warhead though (didn't do much when they did detonate), and it seemed like they didn't have an exact fix on Khan, rather just an "area" to bombard. Khan's beaming location was verified, and it was time-sensitive for how long he would be in that area, so they'd saturate said area with warp capable missiles outside of threat space, most likely killing Khan in the process.

For that you'd need more explosive power than what was show later on. Khan could have replaced the warheads with people. That ring-sized explosive would be quite potent when increased in size, say about human-sized. That'd be more in line with saturating an area.
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Old May 10 2013, 12:10 AM   #20
Count Zero
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Re: Torpedoes (XII spoilers)

beamMe wrote: View Post
Count Zero wrote: View Post
I don't think anyone can survive that impact inside a torpedo. If the torpedoes had been fired and actually crashed on Kronos the people inside would have died. That's why I entertained the idea of Admiral Marcus trying to get rid of the evidence that way.
But I'm not sure how far the torpedoes would have gotten without propulsion systems so if they had been fired they might have floated around in space and there would have been the risk of the Enterprise crew investigating the malfunction and discovering the Augments inside.
Which is why Admiral Marcus would have to make sure that the Enterprise gets destroyed by the Klingons. To me, the warp core malfunction pointed in that direction.

But it's simpler to assume the Admiral didn't know about Khan's crew inside the torpedoes.
Didn't Khan say at one point that he put them in the torpedoes, or am I remembering stuff I think I remember?
Yes, Khan originally put them into the torpedoes trying to smuggle them out at some later point. However, he said he had been caught and had to flee.
The question I had was whether Admiral Marcus knew what was inside the torpedoes when he had them transferred to the Enterprise. Both possibilities would make sense.

Come to think of it, one could see the fact that the Admiral had all 72 torpedoes transferred as a strong hint that he knew and planned to have all of them destroyed, together with the Enterprise. For its mission, the Enterprise didn't need that many, did it? It also strikes me as unwise to hand out all of your prototype super torpedoes to one ship if you expect potential trouble to arise (e.g. from the Klingons) in the future. Okay, strategic planning was never Starfleet's strong suit but if I had what I thought were really powerful torpedoes I'd keep some of them for ships guarding important planets and installations.

Maybe that was deliberately kept vague.
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Old May 10 2013, 12:15 AM   #21
anotherdemon
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Re: Torpedoes (XII spoilers)

I took the convenient breakdown as a means to keep Enterprise in neutral space, i.e., you go no further and you launch your payload.

It could very well have been known by Marcus that they were there. Either way it's a win for him. It seems like he could just kill them discreetly though rather than throwing in variables like Kirk.

It makes more sense that Khan had them all tricked.
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Old May 10 2013, 12:26 AM   #22
beamMe
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Re: Torpedoes (XII spoilers)

Count Zero wrote: View Post
beamMe wrote: View Post
Count Zero wrote: View Post
I don't think anyone can survive that impact inside a torpedo. If the torpedoes had been fired and actually crashed on Kronos the people inside would have died. That's why I entertained the idea of Admiral Marcus trying to get rid of the evidence that way.
But I'm not sure how far the torpedoes would have gotten without propulsion systems so if they had been fired they might have floated around in space and there would have been the risk of the Enterprise crew investigating the malfunction and discovering the Augments inside.
Which is why Admiral Marcus would have to make sure that the Enterprise gets destroyed by the Klingons. To me, the warp core malfunction pointed in that direction.

But it's simpler to assume the Admiral didn't know about Khan's crew inside the torpedoes.
Didn't Khan say at one point that he put them in the torpedoes, or am I remembering stuff I think I remember?
Yes, Khan originally put them into the torpedoes trying to smuggle them out at some later point. However, he said he had been caught and had to flee.
The question I had was whether Admiral Marcus knew what was inside the torpedoes when he had them transferred to the Enterprise. Both possibilities would make sense.

Come to think of it, one could see the fact that the Admiral had all 72 torpedoes transferred as a strong hint that he knew and planned to have all of them destroyed, together with the Enterprise. For its mission, the Enterprise didn't need that many, did it? It also strikes me as unwise to hand out all of your prototype super torpedoes to one ship if you expect potential trouble to arise (e.g. from the Klingons) in the future. Okay, strategic planning was never Starfleet's strong suit but if I had what I thought were really powerful torpedoes I'd keep some of them for ships guarding important planets and installations.

Maybe that was deliberately kept vague.
anotherdemon wrote: View Post
I took the convenient breakdown as a means to keep Enterprise in neutral space, i.e., you go no further and you launch your payload.

It could very well have been known by Marcus that they were there. Either way it's a win for him. It seems like he could just kill them discreetly though rather than throwing in variables like Kirk.

It makes more sense that Khan had them all tricked.
Okay, I now tend towards thinking Marcus knew the Augments were in the torpedoes.
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Old May 10 2013, 01:40 PM   #23
Phily B
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Re: Torpedoes (XII spoilers)

Maybe Khan didn't expect Starfleet to try flat out murder him and overestimated his worth to Section 31? It just happens Kirk listened to his crew in this case and didn't murder Khan without trial.
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Old May 10 2013, 02:05 PM   #24
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Re: Torpedoes (XII spoilers)

If Marcus had control over the torpedoes wouldn't he have just killed off Khan's crew if he knew they were in there?
He knew how much trouble one superhuman was, let alone 72. And wouldn't he have used them against Khan as blackmail?
Still he may have written off Khan and been so arrogant that he thought his Klingon vengeance - destroying the Enterprise plan was foolproof
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