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Go Back   The Trek BBS > Star Trek Movies > Star Trek Movies XI+

Star Trek Movies XI+ Discuss J.J. Abrams' rebooted Star Trek here.

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Old May 9 2013, 03:36 PM   #136
Phily B
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Re: Starship Size Argument™ thread

After seeing it, the size appears really inconsistent. The Vengeance doesn't look that much bigger, like the Enterprise-D and a Romulan Warbird.
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Old May 9 2013, 05:57 PM   #137
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Re: Starship Size Argument™ thread

Phily B wrote: View Post
After seeing it, the size appears really inconsistent. The Vengeance doesn't look that much bigger, like the Enterprise-D and a Romulan Warbird.
That's because it isn't, and the Enterprise isn't 750m. It's 350m. The artists took liberties with the shuttle scene, and the varying-sized bridge window.

Otherwise, we're forced to wonder why we would have a mile-long Federation battlecruiser with minimal crew (as stated in the movie). Sounds like Star Wars, to me.
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Old May 9 2013, 06:30 PM   #138
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Re: Starship Size Argument™ thread

It all seemed insanely massive to me. The Enterprise's engineering section and hangar bay certainly haven't shrunk any. We saw a few schematics of both Enterprise and Vengeance on computer screens and I'm eager to freeze-frame them on DVD in a few months' time.

As for the Vengeance...
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Old May 9 2013, 07:26 PM   #139
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Re: Starship Size Argument™ thread

WarpFactorZ wrote: View Post
Otherwise, we're forced to wonder why we would have a mile-long Federation battlecruiser with minimal crew (as stated in the movie). Sounds like Star Wars, to me.
It's explained in the film for why it exists, and said reason is fairly easy to see considering the incursion of Narada and the death of Vulcan. It can run on one crew-member if need be.

Enterprise seemed quite large in the movie; several hundred meters didn't seem too out of place going by eyeball.

Incidentally, the small Klingon vessels are referred to as a D4. Also, the transport that the heroes utilize (the one in the trailer) was said to be Mudd's -- comic book and/or TOS reference there.
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Old May 9 2013, 07:29 PM   #140
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Re: Starship Size Argument™ thread

Yeah, I liked the explanation for the ship and they say that the Federation doesn't have warships "until now".
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Old May 9 2013, 10:05 PM   #141
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Re: Starship Size Argument™ thread

WarpFactorZ wrote: View Post
That's because it isn't, and the Enterprise isn't 750m. It's 350m.
Okay, the ship isn't 700+ meters long. It's 350 meters, and it's crewed by really tiny people.
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Old May 10 2013, 03:38 AM   #142
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Re: Starship Size Argument™ thread

The JJPrise is inarguably at least twice the size of the oldTrek Enterprise - it's obvious every time we see a shot into the bridge through the viewscreen window, among other things.

The notion of pointing to other windows through which we can see nothing recognizable and declaring "I know how big those windows are because I know how big they were on the old Enterprise" is a non-starter.
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Old May 10 2013, 04:05 AM   #143
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Re: Starship Size Argument™ thread

Did they actually say in the movie that Starfleet didn't have warships before 2259? Please tell me they didn't say that.

A heavy cruiser is a type of warship. They classify the Enterprise as a heavy cruiser in the Star Trek dossier. In the prime universe, the Enterprise is identified as a heavy cruiser by the Federation, and a battle cruiser by the Klingons.

If they did say something that idiotic, are they so lazy that they couldn't do a search for "warship def" on the computer and Google heavy cruiser?
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Old May 10 2013, 04:15 AM   #144
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Re: Starship Size Argument™ thread

In Abrams's first Trek movie, Pike describes the Federation as "a humanitarian and peacekeeping armada."

That covers it, period.

They may be military, but they don't think of themselves primarily as warriors (Kirk: "We've been trained to think in terms other than war," in the episode "Day Of The Dove") or their vessels as warships.

"The Squire Of Gothos:"
KIRK: Our missions are peaceful, not for conquest. When we do battle, it is only because we have no choice.
You can Google any definitions you like, but you'd be hard pressed to find the Enterprise or other Starfleet vessel described by its crew as a "warship" in TOS.

Sounds like the writers did their research and were less lazy than many fans who are sure they know TOS backward and forward.

I'm certainly glad to know that the writers of these movies are actually taking pains to make the distinction that's always been made in Star Trek between the exploratory and sometimes necessarily defensive missions of Starfleet and a fleet of warships - we do want all these millions of new fans to pick up on that difference, after all. "Gene's vision" and all that. You start treating the Enterprise as a warship and you're diminishing the essential differences between Star Trek and Star Wars.
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Old May 10 2013, 04:32 AM   #145
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Re: Starship Size Argument™ thread

Tomorrow is Yesterday
Christoper: I see. Did the Navy...
Kirk: We're a combined service, Captain.

Whom Gods Destroy
A.
Garth: You, Captain, are second only to me as the finest military commander in the galaxy.
Kirk: That's very flattering. I am primarily an explorer now, Captain Garth.
B.
Kirk: I agree there was a time when war was necessary, and you were our greatest warrior. (He is speaking to Garth.)

Star Trek II
A.
Chekov: The order comes from Admiral James Kirk.
David
: I knew it! I knew it! All along the military has wanted to get their han...
B.
David:I've tried to tell you before. Scientists have always been pawns of the military---
Carol
:Starfleet has kept the peace for a hundred years, I cannot and will not subscribe to your interpretation of this event.
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Old May 10 2013, 04:39 AM   #146
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Re: Starship Size Argument™ thread

Admiral Buzzkill wrote: View Post
The JJPrise is inarguably at least twice the size of the oldTrek Enterprise - it's obvious every time we see a shot into the bridge through the viewscreen window, among other things.
It is absolutely arguable, because each person in each window and each shuttlecraft passing through the same bay door produces different scale sizes.

The shpi was originally 350m. It was scaled up in post-production because someone wanted to make something look cool.
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Old May 10 2013, 04:45 AM   #147
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Re: Starship Size Argument™ thread

WarpFactorZ wrote: View Post
Admiral Buzzkill wrote: View Post
The JJPrise is inarguably at least twice the size of the oldTrek Enterprise - it's obvious every time we see a shot into the bridge through the viewscreen window, among other things.
It is absolutely arguable, because each person in each window and each shuttlecraft passing through the same bay door produces different scale sizes.

The shpi was originally 350m. It was scaled up in post-production because someone wanted to make something look cool.
No it's not. You've tried, and many others have tried, but your points don't stand up to the evidence.
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Old May 10 2013, 04:48 AM   #148
anotherdemon
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Re: Starship Size Argument™ thread

The ship can be whatever it wants to be originally, which doesn't change how it actually appears in the finished product.

If the ship varies in size from scene to scene and it's demonstrated accurately, then you can say it's not depicted the same size throughout.
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Old May 10 2013, 06:35 AM   #149
WarpFactorZ
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Re: Starship Size Argument™ thread

Kruezerman wrote: View Post
No it's not. You've tried, and many others have tried, but your points don't stand up to the evidence.
The "evidence": when taking off for the Narada, Pike's shuttle swoops over the lip of the stern. It stretches between the "C-17" on the back. If you assume the shuttle is between 3.5m-4m across, you get the width of the shuttle bay door is between 15-20m across. Scaling everything else gives a ship length of between 300-400m, and height of about 60-70m.

So, the ONLY "evidence" that the ship is some ludicrous 750m is the ONE scene of shuttles landing in a ginormous shuttle bay -- something which is never seen again in the whole movie.

Verdict: ship is between 300-400m long.

As Scotty would say: up your shaft.
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Old May 10 2013, 06:43 AM   #150
trevanian
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Re: Starship Size Argument™ thread

Admiral Buzzkill wrote: View Post
In Abrams's first Trek movie, Pike describes the Federation as "a humanitarian and peacekeeping armada."

That covers it, period.

They may be military, but they don't think of themselves primarily as warriors (Kirk: "We've been trained to think in terms other than war," in the episode "Day Of The Dove") or their vessels as warships.

"The Squire Of Gothos:"
KIRK: Our missions are peaceful, not for conquest. When we do battle, it is only because we have no choice.
You can Google any definitions you like, but you'd be hard pressed to find the Enterprise or other Starfleet vessel described by its crew as a "warship" in TOS.

Sounds like the writers did their research and were less lazy than many fans who are sure they know TOS backward and forward.
Research? Howzabout 'enlist in Starfleet?' ENLIST? Well, based on the Abrams09Thing I guess they take just about everybody (if the 3rd parachuter or cupcake are good examples), so it isn't like you have to exude a special quality to get there in this reality ... that makes it quite different from the real Trek universe.

And your TOS quotes are a bit selective ... I'd think the Garth / Kirk exchange in WHOM GODS DESTROY would be more representative, the one where Garth notes that Kirk's record as a warrior is second only to his own, and Kirk's reply that he thinks of himself primarily as an explorer now. There's plenty of trek backstory suggesting war fleets, from the Romulan war onward, certainly something massive over Organia, and that would also imply that you have mission-specific vessels as well as general purpose heavy cruisers.

BTW ... does Pike really say the FEDERATION is a 'peacekeeping armada' -- not STARFLEET? (I'm really asking here, not being sarcastic, because that sounds totally wrong, like saying the United States is a whole bunch of armed cruisers.)

EDIT ADDON: Sorry, I should have scrolled down to see THROWBACK covered most of this and with more detail than I offered.

Last edited by trevanian; May 10 2013 at 06:45 AM. Reason: apology
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