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Go Back   The Trek BBS > Star Trek Movies > Star Trek Movies XI+

Star Trek Movies XI+ Discuss J.J. Abrams' rebooted Star Trek here.

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Old May 6 2013, 08:01 PM   #61
Gojira
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Re: Is everything before the destruction of the kelvin exactly the sam

DonIago wrote: View Post
(shrugs) I'm perfectly happy with the theory that time travel into the past always involves jumping to an alternate timeline, but in most cases the timeline is so similar to the one you left as to be essentially the same.

"Parallels" even establishes how you can determine whether you're in the timeline you started out in and one way you could return.

But if you always end up going back to an alternate timeline that is practically identical to the one you left, then wouldn't you already exist in that new timeline? You would run into yourself! That is unless "you" in that alternate time line also had gone into the past.

In Star Trek IV. When the crew of the Enterprise returns to the future they are obviously coming back to the same timeline they left. We see that because the destruction of the probe is still going on.
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Old May 6 2013, 08:20 PM   #62
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Re: Is everything before the destruction of the kelvin exactly the sam

Gojira wrote: View Post
In Star Trek IV. When the crew of the Enterprise returns to the future they are obviously coming back to the same timeline they left. We see that because the destruction of the probe is still going on.
Or they returned to an alternate timeline in which the probe also appeared.
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Old May 6 2013, 09:37 PM   #63
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Re: Is everything before the destruction of the kelvin exactly the sam

Exactly. If two alternate universes are essentially identical then why -wouldn't- essentially the same events, including parties traveling into the past of other essentially identical timelines, occur?

Similarly, it can be argued that there's multiple versions of the Mirror Universe. In some the Terran Empire is brought down by the Klingon-Cardassian alliance as per the televised episodes, while in others you end up with a "Dark Mirror" scenario where the Empire endures at least as long as TNG.
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Old May 6 2013, 09:45 PM   #64
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Re: Is everything before the destruction of the kelvin exactly the sam

TOSTNGDS9VOYENT wrote: View Post
Or maybe that mission never happens and as soon as the Narada exits the black hole Data's head disappears from the cave.
Not possible, since the prime timeline still exists even after the Narada goes back. It creates an alternate timeline which branches off from that point, and which does not overwrite the existing one.

And since it is highly unlikely there will ever be an alternate Data (due to the butterfly effect), then in the Abrams timeline, nobody will ever know whose head that is.
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Old May 6 2013, 09:49 PM   #65
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Re: Is everything before the destruction of the kelvin exactly the sam

^Though if there does end up being an alternate Data and similar events occur in the future they might have an educated guess.
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Old May 9 2013, 06:47 PM   #66
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Re: Is everything before the destruction of the kelvin exactly the sam

Into Darkness seems to confirm that Enterprise is the past of the Abramsverse.

"These Are the Voyages" puts ENT in the past of The Next Generation too, so it must be a branching timeline, as the writers said in 2009.
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Old May 9 2013, 07:10 PM   #67
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Re: Is everything before the destruction of the kelvin exactly the sam

Mr. Laser Beam wrote: View Post
TOSTNGDS9VOYENT wrote: View Post
Or maybe that mission never happens and as soon as the Narada exits the black hole Data's head disappears from the cave.
Not possible, since the prime timeline still exists even after the Narada goes back. It creates an alternate timeline which branches off from that point, and which does not overwrite the existing one.

And since it is highly unlikely there will ever be an alternate Data (due to the butterfly effect), then in the Abrams timeline, nobody will ever know whose head that is.
Well, Data will know when they get his head working.

Spock Prime will know too...
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Old May 9 2013, 11:11 PM   #68
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Re: Is everything before the destruction of the kelvin exactly the sam

Mr. Laser Beam wrote: View Post
TOSTNGDS9VOYENT wrote: View Post
Or maybe that mission never happens and as soon as the Narada exits the black hole Data's head disappears from the cave.
Not possible, since the prime timeline still exists even after the Narada goes back. It creates an alternate timeline which branches off from that point, and which does not overwrite the existing one.

And since it is highly unlikely there will ever be an alternate Data (due to the butterfly effect), then in the Abrams timeline, nobody will ever know whose head that is.
There can't be a Data-head in a cave in this timeline. None of the time-travelling that happens in TOS, TNG, DS9 and VOY will ever have happend.

The Narada arrived in a universe/timeline that was already different/changed because of her arrival; the changes "rippled" back in time before Nero and his crew caused any changes because their actions prevented all of the time-travelling we've seen in the other shows movies.

The universe/Federation/Starfleet that is the home of Kelvin and her crew is/was always the world that happens/would have happened without the interference of our oldTrek heroes.

God, I've watched too much Doctor Who.
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Old May 10 2013, 03:33 AM   #69
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Re: Is everything before the destruction of the kelvin exactly the sam

beamMe wrote:
There can't be a Data-head in a cave in this timeline.
This is a branching timeline which diverged from the Prime in 2233. At that point Data's head was in the cave, and it didn't disappear just because Nero showed up.
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Old May 10 2013, 03:41 AM   #70
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Re: Is everything before the destruction of the kelvin exactly the sam

Set Harth wrote: View Post
beamMe wrote:
There can't be a Data-head in a cave in this timeline.
This is a branching timeline which diverged from the Prime in 2233. At that point Data's head was in the cave, and it didn't disappear just because Nero showed up.
But it could disappear, just as it might not disappear, where by "disappear" I mean never have been in that cave as it was in TNG. beamMe's version of temporal mechanics makes at least as much sense as any other in Star Trek.

Until a movie or episode airs that settles the question canonically, the head might or might not be there.

In that sense, it's like Schrödinger's cat, except it's Schrödinger's head. Or Spot's head, if you like.
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Old May 10 2013, 03:46 AM   #71
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Re: Is everything before the destruction of the kelvin exactly the sam

CorporalCaptain wrote: View Post
Set Harth wrote: View Post
beamMe wrote:
There can't be a Data-head in a cave in this timeline.
This is a branching timeline which diverged from the Prime in 2233. At that point Data's head was in the cave, and it didn't disappear just because Nero showed up.
But it could disappear
No, actually, it can't. The 18th century as seen in "Time's Arrow" is common to both timelines. There is only "one" of it. Therefore, since the prime timeline is one possible future, Data's head must logically still be there.
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Old May 10 2013, 03:48 AM   #72
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Re: Is everything before the destruction of the kelvin exactly the sam

Mr. Laser Beam wrote: View Post
No, actually, it can't.
Sorry, this trumps everything.

CorporalCaptain wrote: View Post
Until a movie or episode airs that settles the question canonically, the head might or might not be there.
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Old May 10 2013, 03:56 AM   #73
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Re: Is everything before the destruction of the kelvin exactly the sam

For Data's head to be there, TNG has to be akin to what we saw. But is that possible with what we are seeing in the reboot? The history of that series includes elements from the prime universe TOS ("Relics", "Journey to Babel", "The Naked Time", etc). This TOS has been irrevocably altered.
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Old May 10 2013, 04:36 AM   #74
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Re: Is everything before the destruction of the kelvin exactly the sam

But Data's head was left there in 1893, 340 years before the timeline split. If his head is beneath San Francisco the day before the Kelvin was destroyed, why wouldn't it be there the day after?
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Old May 10 2013, 05:13 AM   #75
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Re: Is everything before the destruction of the kelvin exactly the sam

Third Nacelle wrote: View Post
But Data's head was left there in 1893, 340 years before the timeline split. If his head is beneath San Francisco the day before the Kelvin was destroyed, why wouldn't it be there the day after?
The point is that, unless and until we find out in JJ-canon, we don't actually know if the head is "really" there in the JJ-universe.

For all we know, maybe in the JJ-universe the head isn't there the day before the Kelvin arrives either, such as for the reason that beamMe gave. TPTB aren't obligated to follow anyone's rules of the way things operate, except their own.

Maybe the head's there; maybe it isn't.
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