RSS iconTwitter iconFacebook icon

The Trek BBS title image

The Trek BBS statistics

Threads: 135,755
Posts: 5,216,244
Members: 24,216
Currently online: 945
Newest member: kasmuruis

TrekToday headlines

Q Meets NuTrek Crew
By: T'Bonz on Apr 18

Pine In Talks For Drama
By: T'Bonz on Apr 18

New X-Men: Days of Future Past Trailer
By: T'Bonz on Apr 17

Nimoy to Receive Award
By: T'Bonz on Apr 17

Star Trek Special: Flesh and Stone Comic
By: T'Bonz on Apr 16

These Are The Voyages TOS Season Two Book Review
By: T'Bonz on Apr 16

Kirk’s Well Wishes To Kirk
By: T'Bonz on Apr 15

Quinto In New Starz Series
By: T'Bonz on Apr 15

Star Trek: Horizon Film
By: T'Bonz on Apr 14

Star Trek: Fleet Captains Game Expansion
By: T'Bonz on Apr 14


Welcome! The Trek BBS is the number one place to chat about Star Trek with like-minded fans. Please login to see our full range of forums as well as the ability to send and receive private messages, track your favourite topics and of course join in the discussions.

If you are a new visitor, join us for free. If you are an existing member please login below. Note: for members who joined under our old messageboard system, please login with your display name not your login name.


Go Back   The Trek BBS > Star Trek TV Series > Enterprise

Enterprise The final frontier has a new beginning in this forum!

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old May 9 2013, 12:13 AM   #61
BillJ
Admiral
 
Location: In the 23rd Century...
View BillJ's Twitter Profile
Re: “In Conversation” or “Berman and Braga vs the world.”

horatio83 wrote: View Post
Not that one should take anybody seriously who uses the word objective while talking about art/entertainment in the first place. ... but ENT got canceled when it became good and while Coto was in control. So much about blaming Berman and Braga and how cancellation reveals anything objectively about the quality of a TV show. Hell, I guess Firefly has to be a shitty show because it got canceled. I ain't gonna watch that.
Part of Firefly's issue was that it was ran out of order here in the States. Starting with "The Train Job" and ending with the pilot.

As far as Enterprise goes, Americans tend to have little patience for a show that starts slow and remains slow for two full years. Usually once they leave, they never come back, no matter how compelling a show is.

Objective or not, there was nothing about the show that compelled me to come back once I left and I'm a die-hard Trekkie. It had a very "been there, done that" feeling to it and I think that the most damning evidence that they were creatively burned-out was "Broken Bow" itself. We had just come off of fourteen straight seasons of Klingon characters and various Klingon storylines and the very first episode shown to the public features Klingons. Honestly, the technology served the very same purpose as it did in later series just with tweaked terminology. Phase pistols instead of phasers, photonic torpedoes, hull plating down to 'XX' percent!
__________________
I'm not popular enough to be different! - Homer Simpson

Last edited by BillJ; May 9 2013 at 12:27 AM.
BillJ is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 9 2013, 01:26 PM   #62
horatio83
Commodore
 
Re: “In Conversation” or “Berman and Braga vs the world.”

Yep, while the frequent use of the shuttle, the grappler, decon and so on was nice the technology was definitely not retro enough.
About the Klingons, we got to see the honour concept of two non-warrior Klingons in Judgement and Affliction/Divergence which is more new ideas about Klingons than in all the previous 14 seasons.
This is in my opinion the main problem of ENT, the bad stuff is obvious and good stuff is often quite subtle. So the series easily turns off many Trek fans (I didn't particularly like it either when I first saw it) and they will never come back.
__________________
The illegal we do immediately; the unconstitutional takes a little longer. - former US Secretary of State and unconvicted war criminal Henry Kissinger
horatio83 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 9 2013, 06:37 PM   #63
BillJ
Admiral
 
Location: In the 23rd Century...
View BillJ's Twitter Profile
Re: “In Conversation” or “Berman and Braga vs the world.”

horatio83 wrote: View Post
This is in my opinion the main problem of ENT, the bad stuff is obvious and good stuff is often quite subtle. So the series easily turns off many Trek fans (I didn't particularly like it either when I first saw it) and they will never come back.
I think the biggest problem Enterprise faced during its first two years was that it was dull. I can forgive many, many faults in productions, except that one.
__________________
I'm not popular enough to be different! - Homer Simpson
BillJ is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 9 2013, 06:51 PM   #64
horatio83
Commodore
 
Re: “In Conversation” or “Berman and Braga vs the world.”

I don't see why the third season should be better. It was just an extension of the Temporal Cold War plus a season long arc about finding a weapon of mass destruction. Sure, it was perhaps not dull as Earth was always in danger but I don't see how this old "let's endanger Earth" trick makes the show per se better. The only good stuff were the Xindi as a species (although it was a bit speciesist, only the Primate are reasonable), the difference with the way such an attack has been handled in the real world (Archer talked with his enemies and collaborated with the reasonable ones among them) and the 'ship all on its own' atmosphere. But then again we had the latter already in VOY and we also already had the Dominion War in DS9. In my opinion they should have waited for the Romulan War until they started with a story arc that endures for an entire season or longer. If the show had not been canceled and e.g. the sixth and the seventh season had been used to tell the war with the Romulans it would have felt too repetitive.

So structurally speaking I don't perceive the third season as being better. Not that this matters particularly, in my mind the average quality of shows or seasons varies far less than the quality of individual stories. Which is why I like all Trek shows or to be more precise, the good episodes in them.
__________________
The illegal we do immediately; the unconstitutional takes a little longer. - former US Secretary of State and unconvicted war criminal Henry Kissinger
horatio83 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 9 2013, 06:54 PM   #65
BillJ
Admiral
 
Location: In the 23rd Century...
View BillJ's Twitter Profile
Re: “In Conversation” or “Berman and Braga vs the world.”

horatio83 wrote: View Post
I don't see why the third season should be better.
The story wasn't better, the pacing was. A forty-minute show actually seemed like a forty-minute show instead of two-hours. I didn't find myself constantly glancing at the clock wondering when it was going to be over.
__________________
I'm not popular enough to be different! - Homer Simpson
BillJ is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 9 2013, 07:01 PM   #66
horatio83
Commodore
 
Re: “In Conversation” or “Berman and Braga vs the world.”

Well, in the third season there was more action so perhaps this is what you perceive as more exciting. But there were also fairly lame episodes in it like the one with the Wild West planet or where some crewmembers changed into an extinct species.

I think the modern Trek shows are all told fairly quickly. TNG had a couple of minutes more than post-TNG and TOS about 10 minutes more and I wouldn't say that they dragged because of it. ENT did encounter some problems though with its three-parters in the last season, one episode always felt a bit superfluous, but then again this is unavoidable when you do more serialized kind of story-telling.
__________________
The illegal we do immediately; the unconstitutional takes a little longer. - former US Secretary of State and unconvicted war criminal Henry Kissinger
horatio83 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 9 2013, 07:01 PM   #67
Admiral Buzzkill
The Legend
 
Re: “In Conversation” or “Berman and Braga vs the world.”

Scotty wrote: View Post
The shows set in the 24th century were all huge successes (some more than others) so why would you wanna change that?
No.

Only TNG was "a huge success."

Admiral Buzzkill is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 9 2013, 07:07 PM   #68
horatio83
Commodore
 
Re: “In Conversation” or “Berman and Braga vs the world.”

You always gotta be a bit careful with ratings, first because they are subject to time slots and thus self-fulfilling prophecies like during the last season of TOS (cut the budget, move the show on a bad time slot and then play all surprised when fewer people watch it), second because of DVD sales (more serialized shows sell better on DVDs), third because they reveal little about story quality (most people consider the last season of ENT as best and yet the ratings were seemingly on their lowest level during the last year).
But of course the rough picture is correct, TOS and TNG are the classics and the spinoff shows, well, they are just spinoffs.
__________________
The illegal we do immediately; the unconstitutional takes a little longer. - former US Secretary of State and unconvicted war criminal Henry Kissinger
horatio83 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 9 2013, 08:12 PM   #69
gblews
Rear Admiral
 
gblews's Avatar
 
Location: So. Cal.
View gblews's Twitter Profile
Re: “In Conversation” or “Berman and Braga vs the world.”

horatio83 wrote: View Post
I don't see why the third season should be better. It was just an extension of the Temporal Cold War...
Rather large leap in logic there. The Xindi story had very little to do with the Temporal Cold War even though it had some elements of time travel.
...plus a season long arc about finding a weapon of mass destruction.
Yes, it was simple enough story but "simple" stories have been the basis of some pretty great literature, movies, and T.V., over the years.

Just because it is a simple story (or simple sounding) does not mean it is automatically mediocre. Best of Both Worlds was, at it's core, just another captain gets kidnapped story as was The Inner Light. It is what one does with a "simple story" that makes the difference. Now you may respond that what Ent did with thier simple story was mediocre, but it has been established that "mediocre" is in the eye of the beholder.
__________________
Duckman: I'll never forget the last thing my father said to me...
Cornfed: "Careful son, I don't think the safety's on"?
Duckman: BEFORE THAT!!!

Last edited by gblews; May 9 2013 at 11:49 PM.
gblews is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 9 2013, 08:28 PM   #70
BillJ
Admiral
 
Location: In the 23rd Century...
View BillJ's Twitter Profile
Re: “In Conversation” or “Berman and Braga vs the world.”

horatio83 wrote: View Post
Well, in the third season there was more action so perhaps this is what you perceive as more exciting.
I didn't say I found it more "exciting", the stories flowed better. There was more meat (ideas/action) to the episodes than what we had in season one or two. There were less letters to Dr. Lucas, less hemming and hawing over pineapple, less utterly uninteresting bullshit that just screamed that Berman and Braga were completely burned-out.

Of course, everyone's mileage may vary. I find that seasons one and two of TNG were my favorites of that series. So what do I know?
__________________
I'm not popular enough to be different! - Homer Simpson
BillJ is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 9 2013, 08:50 PM   #71
Scotty
Rear Admiral
 
Scotty's Avatar
 
Location: The Netherlands, Les Pays Bas, Holland
Re: “In Conversation” or “Berman and Braga vs the world.”

Admiral Buzzkill wrote: View Post
Scotty wrote: View Post
The shows set in the 24th century were all huge successes (some more than others) so why would you wanna change that?
No.

Only TNG was "a huge success."

Never mind that you offer no source for those numbers, I was talking about worldwide success and popularity amongst fans.
__________________
"No bla bla bla!" - Captain James T. Kirk
Scotty is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 9 2013, 09:13 PM   #72
Harvey
Admiral
 
Harvey's Avatar
 
Re: “In Conversation” or “Berman and Braga vs the world.”

Those numbers have been reproduced elsewhere. They're accurate.

Of course, they're without the context of the changes being experienced in American television from 1987-2005, but objectively they do show one thing: a declining first-run American audience for the franchise since the early 1990s..
__________________
"This begs explanation." - de Forest Research on Star Trek

My blog: Star Trek Fact Check.
Harvey is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 9 2013, 09:25 PM   #73
BillJ
Admiral
 
Location: In the 23rd Century...
View BillJ's Twitter Profile
Re: “In Conversation” or “Berman and Braga vs the world.”

Scotty wrote: View Post
...I was talking about worldwide success and popularity amongst fans.
Unfortunately, I don't think those numbers mean as much to Paramount/CBS as they generate less revenue from those sources.
__________________
I'm not popular enough to be different! - Homer Simpson
BillJ is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 9 2013, 09:29 PM   #74
Scotty
Rear Admiral
 
Scotty's Avatar
 
Location: The Netherlands, Les Pays Bas, Holland
Re: “In Conversation” or “Berman and Braga vs the world.”

Harvey wrote: View Post
Those numbers have been reproduced elsewhere. They're accurate. Of course, they're without the context of the changes being experienced in American television from 1987-2005, but objectively they do show one thing: a declining first-run American audience for the franchise since the early 1990s..
You cannot use that graph to compare the succes off a syndicated show like TNG in the early nineties to that of a show in the late nineties on a small network like VOY. Also, they say nothing about Trek's worldwide success.
__________________
"No bla bla bla!" - Captain James T. Kirk
Scotty is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 9 2013, 09:32 PM   #75
BillJ
Admiral
 
Location: In the 23rd Century...
View BillJ's Twitter Profile
Re: “In Conversation” or “Berman and Braga vs the world.”

Scotty wrote: View Post
Harvey wrote: View Post
Those numbers have been reproduced elsewhere. They're accurate. Of course, they're without the context of the changes being experienced in American television from 1987-2005, but objectively they do show one thing: a declining first-run American audience for the franchise since the early 1990s..
You cannot use that graph to compare the succes off a syndicated show like TNG in the early nineties to that of a show in the late nineties on a small network like VOY. Also, they say nothing about Trek's worldwide success.
I don't find it at all surprising that less people were watching Trek at the end of the nineties than at the beginning, there was just so much of it by the tail end of the decade people were tired of it.
__________________
I'm not popular enough to be different! - Homer Simpson
BillJ is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump



All times are GMT +1. The time now is 07:29 PM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.6
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
FireFox 2+ or Internet Explorer 7+ highly recommended.