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Old May 9 2013, 04:18 AM   #31
JirinPanthosa
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Re: United Earth? No Thanks.

ZapBrannigan wrote: View Post
I'd be wary of the Star Trek future in which the whole Earth falls under one government. It's apparently a prerequisite for us to found the Federation, in which every planet counts as one member (but we're the big dog and don't forget it ). Even so, it has disadvantages.

A single government for the Earth would have so many citizens that it simply could not be responsive to them. We'd be ruled by distant elites who would not necessarily share our values and priorities (much like the European Union today, in the eyes of many of its people).

And those elites wouldn't need to be responsive. A government with six billion constituents would not have to answer to any of them. Assuming you even had an elected representative in the legislature, he would either be powerless because the legislature is so large, or he would have so many constituents that you would mean nothing to him.
If the power is centralized I agree.

If local decisions are made by locally elected governors and the central government only makes military and interstate rulings, none of that applies.

Unified government with decentralized power, that's my vote. That way you could globally enforce things like "Don't stone women to death for showing their chin in public" but "Jon gets to have a loud party that disturbs his neighbors" is decided locally.

Amendments 9 and 10 bitches!
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Old May 9 2013, 05:09 AM   #32
T'Girl
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Re: United Earth? No Thanks.

cheesepuff316 wrote: View Post
The Johnson wrote: View Post
Does everyone on earth speak English in the star trek future?
English is already one of if not the most widely spoken language on Earth already. I assume that there are still other languages used by humans living wherever but for the sake of simplicity, representatives of Earth speak English.....
Mandarin is spoken by nearly three time as many people today as English, although not as widely. Spanish is almost as widely spoken as English and is spoken by many more people. Picard, Chekov, Uhura all spoke a native languages other than English. English seem to be the common language in Starfleet, but to how many people on the future Earth was it their first language?

And with the universal translator, would a common Earth language really be all that important?

Squiggy wrote: View Post
ZapBrannigan wrote: View Post
A single government for the Earth would have so many citizens ...
What's the maximum number of citizens that's acceptable to you?
I've always though something around two billion would be nice. A few large cities like San Fransisco, mostly small towns and villages, Picard spoke of the community he grew up just outside of as a "village."


Last edited by T'Girl; May 9 2013 at 05:28 AM.
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Old May 9 2013, 08:01 PM   #33
Gary7
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Re: United Earth? No Thanks.

Governing affects things locally, so you always need some kind of local representation. In the USA we have the states, united under one federal government. It works... however, if you're stretching to distant lands in different time zones and significantly different regional cultures, it does NOT work (the USA does this in a very limited sense, e.g. Alaska, Hawaii). Human social history is a good indication of this, as empires sought to dominate and control a significant portion of the globe, but ultimately ended up shrinking back to more "manageable" proportions.

I see an eventual UGC of some sort (United Global Council) formed to address issues that have global importance. This is becoming increasingly imperative, as we've no global accountability at this point. Rain forests, seas, and wilderness stretches (to name a few) are being abused at the expense of global security. The unbridled exploitation needs to stop, or we're going to ruin the planet for comfortable and sustainable human living. You can't effectively limit exploitation without a global entity of some sort, because without it there is no way to enforce accountability.

So while I don't see a "world government", I do see the need for something like the United Nations that has a much more active and effective role in global affairs.
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Old May 9 2013, 08:06 PM   #34
Deckerd
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Re: United Earth? No Thanks.

I think people are confusing nationality with ethnicity here. I meant let's face it in ST Earth there will be ethnic minorities living quite happily who did not evolve on Earth, so the idea that somehow there will be a homogeneous human population is as laughable in the future as it is now. Geography alone will see to that. Mass rapid transport, as it is now, will only be used by the minority who want to move around.
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Old May 12 2013, 02:48 AM   #35
T'Girl
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Re: United Earth? No Thanks.

ZapBrannigan wrote: View Post
Deckerd wrote: View Post
Politically I think each country would run itself much as before, surely?
The central government would always want to exert some control to establish uniform standards and generally work its will in policy matters.
Thinking about this, the "world government" could be designed and structured so as that it solely dealt with diplomatic relations between Earth and other species, general interstellar matters and sending a representative to the Federation Council. After that the world government would effectively have no powers what-so-ever. The national governments of Earth would each send a representative to the body. The Prime Minister or President of a nation might themselves choose a subordinate directly, or simply leave the selection to their Secretary of State. Call the representative to the world government a "Undersecretary for Interstellar Affairs," or something like that.

Deckerd wrote: View Post
I think people are confusing nationality with ethnicity here. I meant let's face it in ST Earth there will be ethnic minorities living quite happily who did not evolve on Earth ...
If a Andorian family immigrated from Andor to Earth and settled in Australia, would they be (after paperwork) a citizen of Earth, or a citizen of Australia?

I think they'd be a citizen of Australia.

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Old May 12 2013, 03:16 AM   #36
Third Nacelle
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Re: United Earth? No Thanks.

Neither. They'd be a citizen of the United Federation of Planets, as they were all along. They never emigrated. They just moved.

The phrase "Federation citizen" has definitely been heard on screen, I just can't remember when.
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Old May 12 2013, 03:18 AM   #37
R. Star
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Re: United Earth? No Thanks.

Yeah, I'd think it'd be like someone moving from New York to Texas or something in the US. You may need to get a new local id, but that's about the extent of it.
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Old May 12 2013, 06:53 AM   #38
Sci
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Re: United Earth? No Thanks.

R. Star wrote: View Post
Yeah, I'd think it'd be like someone moving from New York to Texas or something in the US. You may need to get a new local id, but that's about the extent of it.
Well, technically-speaking, someone moving from New York to Texas does indeed lose New York citizenship and gain Texan citizenship, all the while retaining United States citizenship.

So there's no particular reason why an Andorian who moves to Australia couldn't gain United Earth and Australian citizenships while still retaining Federation citizenship.
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Old May 12 2013, 12:30 PM   #39
USS Einstein
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Re: United Earth? No Thanks.

We already have a United Earth world government - i.e. we are all ruled by big business.

So the question really is 'what type of United Earth', because that ship already sailed.

United Earth seems to be a post scarcity society in which humans are no longer coerced from birth-to-death into paying rent in the form of wage labour to their masters, in exchange for the right to survive.

But it still has 'money' (Federation credits), so perhaps beyond survival needs, Federation citizens can still choose to find employment, without coercion, in order to make more complicated products (such as Picard family wine).
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Old May 12 2013, 07:31 PM   #40
T'Girl
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Re: United Earth? No Thanks.

Third Nacelle wrote: View Post
Neither. They'd be a citizen of the United Federation of Planets, as they were all along. They never emigrated. They just moved.

The phrase "Federation citizen" has definitely been heard on screen, I just can't remember when.
While not completely sure, I believe that came from Picard, but Picard is likely one of the rare people on the show (there are a few others) who would even use a term like "citizen of the Federation."

Captain Kirk might say the "I/We are from the Federation" in a official capacity, but it's perfectly clear that he thought of himself as a Earthman. Deanna consistently referred to herself as a Betazed, even with her mixed Betazed/Human ancestry, I can't remember Deanna ever personally calling herself a "Federatista" or some such.

The people of the United States of America refer to ourselves as "Americans." There is no sign on the show that there exists any common identifier for people from worlds that are in membership with each other in the UFP.

Federation citizen would be a informal colloquialism, that has no real meaning. Somewhat like the current "citizen of the world," "citizen of the Federation" would be a charming expression that has no official meaning.

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Old May 12 2013, 07:36 PM   #41
MacLeod
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Re: United Earth? No Thanks.

Surely the closest thing in todays world would be the EU. Sure most people in the EU might consider themselves British, French, Germany etc.. but they are also European Union citizens. And yes being a Eurpean Citizen does have real meaning, if a EU Citizen needs help abroad and their country doesn't have an Ambassador to that country and another EU member state does that member state is legally obligied to render aid.
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Old May 12 2013, 08:06 PM   #42
Third Nacelle
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Re: United Earth? No Thanks.

T'Girl wrote: View Post
Deanna consistently referred to herself as a Betazed, even with her mixed Betazed/Human ancestry, I can't remember Deanna ever personally calling herself a "Federatista" or some such.
I'm pretty sure when Deanna refers to herself as Betazed, she's referring to her species/race/heritage, not her government. No one ever calls himself an Earthling or Terran (except in the MU), it's always human. When referring to nationality, it's Federation.

The nature of the UFP is never fully stated onscreen, and we've only seen snippets of the Federation Constitution and Charter, but if I get the feeling that's it's a level of government somewhere between what the EU is and what the US is, at least by the 24th century.

The biggest evidence of that is Starfleet itself, which is a unified interplanetary defense/exploration force. It's not just a coalition with troops from different planetary militaries.

And when Changelings infiltrated Earth, was the Earth government ever even mentioned? No, Sisko goes to the Federation president with what he's found, and Starfleet ups security on Earth - not just in Paris and San Francisco, but in New Orleans.

The last time we hear anything about an Earth government is mentions of UESPA early in TOS, before GR even conceived of the UFP.
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Old May 12 2013, 11:41 PM   #43
Sci
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Re: United Earth? No Thanks.

USS Einstein wrote: View Post
We already have a United Earth world government - i.e. we are all ruled by big business.

So the question really is 'what type of United Earth', because that ship already sailed.

United Earth seems to be a post scarcity society in which humans are no longer coerced from birth-to-death into paying rent in the form of wage labour to their masters, in exchange for the right to survive.

But it still has 'money' (Federation credits), so perhaps beyond survival needs, Federation citizens can still choose to find employment, without coercion, in order to make more complicated products (such as Picard family wine).
Sounds good to me!
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Old May 20 2013, 11:09 AM   #44
Crazyewok
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Re: United Earth? No Thanks.

Ok I think that each Country would rule itself as long as it adhered to certain standards. It would mostly likely be like the UN but with teeth. As soon as a politician steps out of line or becomes corrupt starfleet security beam in and arrest them end of. People like Hitler, Sadam Hussian, Assador and all the other useless pieces of scum we have now days running things would have been removed from there position before they could hurt anyone.

As for economy I think It would be a Socialism/ Capitalist hybrid with a heavy leaning toward Socialism.

I think everyone Guaranteed:
Basic Food
Basic Clean Water
Housing
Education
Healthcare

But if you want a better house or a tastier food, holadeck time or a nice holiday you have to get a job and earn energy credits.

One things for certain there is no huge poor/ rich divide. There is enough work for everyone. And everyone gets the same top quality healthcare and education.
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Old May 20 2013, 11:17 AM   #45
CorporalCaptain
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Re: United Earth? No Thanks.

Crazyewok wrote: View Post
Ok I think that each Country would rule itself as long as it adhered to certain standards. It would mostly likely be like the UN but with teeth. As soon as a politician steps out of line or becomes corrupt starfleet security beam in and arrest them end of. People like Hitler, Sadam Hussian, Assador and all the other useless pieces of scum we have now days running things would have been removed from there position before they could hurt anyone.

As for economy I think It would be a Socialism/ Capitalist hybrid with a heavy leaning toward Socialism.

I think everyone Guaranteed:
Basic Food
Basic Clean Water
Housing
Education
Healthcare

But if you want a better house or a tastier food, holadeck time or a nice holiday you have to get a job and earn energy credits.

One things for certain there is no huge poor/ rich divide. There is enough work for everyone. And everyone gets the same top quality healthcare and education.
Based on everything we've seen on screen, apparently it costs no more to replicate a given amount of tastier food than it does to replicate the same amount of basic food, as you put it.
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