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Go Back   The Trek BBS > Star Trek Movies > Star Trek Movies XI+

Star Trek Movies XI+ Discuss J.J. Abrams' rebooted Star Trek here.

View Poll Results: Grade the movie...
A+ 144 19.30%
A 161 21.58%
A- 101 13.54%
B+ 82 10.99%
B 58 7.77%
B- 27 3.62%
C+ 40 5.36%
C 38 5.09%
C- 25 3.35%
D+ 11 1.47%
D 13 1.74%
D- 10 1.34%
F 36 4.83%
Voters: 746. You may not vote on this poll

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Old May 9 2013, 08:43 AM   #1216
StarMan
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Re: STAR TREK INTO DARKNESS - Grading & Discussion [SPOILERS]

mattman8907 wrote: View Post
just out of curiosity how long did it take for the enterprise to be repaired after it go it's fanny whooped by the vengeance?
After the dust settled we cut to Kirk addressing an audience gathered for the rechristening of The Enterprise.

Anyway, one or two musings in no particular order (SPOILERS!):

.
.
.

.
.
.

Ok, so if you're reading these spoilers, there's a good chance you know Kirk 'dies' when he sacrifices himself to fix the power grid of the ship. It was just too much. The sequence really pulled me out of the movie with it's self-referential nature and the lines lifted from TWOK. Kirk and Spock had a bit of back and forth, before it concluded with (or to the effect of):

Kirk: "I saved you because I'd miss you." (referring to Spock's close call with a Volcano).

*Kirk dies*

and then this ... I was gobsmacked...

*Spock is upset... then a wave of fury hits him...*

Spock: "KHHHHHHHHHHHHHHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAANNNN!!!!!!"

*cut to shot of The Vengeance careening past the now stable Enterprise towards San Francisco.*
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Old May 9 2013, 08:47 AM   #1217
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Re: STAR TREK INTO DARKNESS - Grading & Discussion [SPOILERS]

Lance wrote: View Post
I gotta be real: discovering who the villain is after all, I do admit I was disappointed. With a whole new version of the Star Trek universe to play with, I was hoping for something more satisfying than Khan. I'd almost have rathered 'John Harrison', a brand new villain. Regardless of what is done with him I can't help feeling that falling back on Khan (or any specific former villain for that matter) was a creatively bankrupt move on Orci and Kutzman's part.
Oh, but that's the nice thing about this universe's Khan: he isn't the villain - not really. He's still a genetically engineered superhuman with a special moral compass. But he's out to save his people - using really violent methods.

Admiral Marcus is the real villain in this film. If he'd succeeded with his plan to spark a war with the Klingons, the resulting death toll would have dwarfed the one caused by Khan.
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Old May 9 2013, 08:54 AM   #1218
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Re: STAR TREK INTO DARKNESS - Grading & Discussion [SPOILERS]

Count Zero wrote: View Post
I appreciated how they addressed a number of points that bugged people about the first movie,
Especially by actually showing the NX-01 (model) and firmly establishing, without any doubt whatsoever, that Enterprise really is the last remnant of old Trek in this universe

(Oh, and old Spock. I liked Nimoy's cameo.)
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Old May 9 2013, 08:56 AM   #1219
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Re: STAR TREK INTO DARKNESS - Grading & Discussion [SPOILERS]

Didn't the writers/producers say that they changed the character a bit when they moved from Benicio del Toro to Benedict Cumberbatch? I had hoped that they changed him from Khan to Joaquin or one of the other augments from Space Seed. Harrison relvealing himself as Khan really threw me out of the movie, there is absolutely nothing Khan-ish about him. I even could have lived with him being Data (that thought had actually crossed my mind), but Khan? No way!
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Old May 9 2013, 09:00 AM   #1220
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Re: STAR TREK INTO DARKNESS - Grading & Discussion [SPOILERS]

beamMe wrote: View Post
Especially by actually showing the NX-01 (model) and firmly establishing, without any doubt whatsoever, that Enterprise really is the last remnant of old Trek in this universe

(Oh, and old Spock. I liked Nimoy's cameo.)
I didn't catch the NX-01, but what really bugged me is that there was a model of the Vengeance on his desk. Wasn't this ship supposed to be a super secret warship? On the other hand, the base where it was stationed didn't seem exactly hidden or even guarded.

Nimoy was the only true surprise in this movie, and a very welcome one at that!
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Old May 9 2013, 09:12 AM   #1221
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Re: STAR TREK INTO DARKNESS - Grading & Discussion [SPOILERS]

Oso Blanco wrote: View Post
there is absolutely nothing Khan-ish about him.
A strong, charismatic, intelligent, sexy man with a superiority-complex and a tendency to use violence - yes, nothing like Khan at all.

Oso Blanco wrote: View Post
[
I didn't catch the NX-01,
She was right next to the NX-Alpha/Beta model, very close to the Ring-ship.
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Old May 9 2013, 09:13 AM   #1222
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Re: STAR TREK INTO DARKNESS - Grading & Discussion [SPOILERS]

One thing I still don´t understand - when they seem now to be able to beam peope right across the galaxy (I guess Earth-Kronos is pretty far away), why do they need starships at all? Will the future of Star Trek be like Stargate, hopping from one planet to the next?
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Old May 9 2013, 09:22 AM   #1223
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Re: STAR TREK INTO DARKNESS - Grading & Discussion [SPOILERS]

tobiasrichter wrote: View Post
One thing I still don´t understand - when they seem now to be able to beam peope right across the galaxy (I guess Earth-Kronos is pretty far away), why do they need starships at all? Will the future of Star Trek be like Stargate, hopping from one planet to the next?
But they aren't. Section 31 appropriated the transwarp-beaming project.
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Old May 9 2013, 09:23 AM   #1224
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Re: STAR TREK INTO DARKNESS - Grading & Discussion [SPOILERS]

I was very disappointed.

I thought it was choppy, and that it lacked tension and emotional impact. The homage points were way too heavy handed. When Spock screamed Khaan the thought that went through my head was, "I want slap JJ in the face". I felt like Khan needed more build up, that Cumberbatch (who was certainly up for the role, no complaints there) was underused by the writers. Certain other things annoyed me such as the communicator call from out near Quonos to Earth and that Pike just blabbed out about Section 31 to Kirk. The tribble/blood deal was completely obvious and made doing the reverse death hands on glass khan yelling scene seem pointlessly repetitive with zero emotional impact. The whole thing just didn't work for me. Also rather irritated at a great line in the trailer never showing up in the movie.

Things I did like:

Uhura wearing the same earrings as the first JJ movie.

Discussion about Spock/Uhura spat and emotions was tidy and worked well.

Lashings of K/S slashiness.

NIMOY!

Visually attractive, very much enjoyed the London scenes.

JJ's ability to keep so many huge things a secret, kudos to him for that one. I am now a bit worried that Star Wars VII will be a collection of homages and redone scenes from the earlier films though.

I'm not going to vote in the poll because I'm hoping watching it again will improve my opinion. I really really really don't like not loving this movie.

(Oh and btw in case anyone thinks I'm a Trek luddite I adored the first film, my absolute favorite Trek film.)
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Old May 9 2013, 09:25 AM   #1225
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Re: STAR TREK INTO DARKNESS - Grading & Discussion [SPOILERS]

tobiasrichter wrote: View Post
One thing I still don´t understand - when they seem now to be able to beam peope right across the galaxy (I guess Earth-Kronos is pretty far away), why do they need starships at all? Will the future of Star Trek be like Stargate, hopping from one planet to the next?
I had really hoped that this transwarp beaming nonsense from the first movie would never come up again, but there you go ... beaming from Starfleet HQ directly to Kronos ... has there ever been anything more facepalmworthy in Star Trek?

I know I come across as if I didn't like the movie. Well, I did like it ... but those little things are kind of ruining it for me. The Klingon "D4" ship was another one.
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Old May 9 2013, 09:38 AM   #1226
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Re: STAR TREK INTO DARKNESS - Grading & Discussion [SPOILERS]



(A+) I loved the movie. I thought it was a very entertaining thrill ride. Lots of humour, action, emotion, drama. I am a lifelong fan, who could name every episode, every guest star, every planet. It's essentially a reboot in all but name, but I am past that now. I think it's an entertaining take on a classic franchise.

I think if Trekkies can just get over the fact they've essentially rebooted the universe, they'll get a kick out of this. This movie is fun. It's great that Star Trek is fun again, after the staginess, and PC nature of Berman's entries like Voyager.

Five stars. Very entertaining movie
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Old May 9 2013, 10:02 AM   #1227
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Re: STAR TREK INTO DARKNESS - Grading & Discussion [SPOILERS]

tobiasrichter wrote: View Post
One thing I still don´t understand - when they seem now to be able to beam peope right across the galaxy (I guess Earth-Kronos is pretty far away), why do they need starships at all?

Starships aren't taxis.
They still need starships to do any meaningful exploration, go to unknown\uncharted places, do all sorts of analysis with the scientific instruments and sensors onboard etc etc
They still need starships for defense. What good is beaming going to be when the Klingon or Romulan fleet shows up?
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Old May 9 2013, 10:39 AM   #1228
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Re: STAR TREK INTO DARKNESS - Grading & Discussion [SPOILERS]

I'm still thinking about why this movie didn't keep up with my expectations ... I think the whole pre-release build up lead into a completely wrong direction:

Into Darkness - There wasn't any more darkness to it than in the other movies. It was about one or two bad guys and a super ship and neither one barely had the chance to live up to it's potential. Cumberbatch was wasted in this role, they should have explored his character even more and they shouldn't have had him admit being Khan so early in the movie. Once I knew for sure he was Khan, I could foretell almost the entire rest of the film.

And what about the official synopsis?

Our heroes are propelled into an epic chess game of life and death
They went to Kronos and Khan surrendered. What was so epic about that?

Love will be challenged
So Spock and Uhura had a crisis ... so what?

Friendships will be torn apart
I must have missed this part ... or does Scotty resigning count?

And sacrifices must be made for the only family Kirk has left: his crew.
What sacrifice? Kirk gave his life, but we all knew that he wasn't really dead. And for those who weren't sure, didn't the Tribble experiment give it away pretty soon?
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Old May 9 2013, 10:54 AM   #1229
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Re: STAR TREK INTO DARKNESS - Grading & Discussion [SPOILERS]

I should've known that coming here after seeing the film would mean reading comment upon comment of some canon-whore bemoaning how the film "tramples all over established Trek", respectively those who feel that "oh, it's not Star Trek at all". Hogwash, both of them.

To those who haven't seen it (and you really shouldn't be in a spoiler thread at this point!): It rocks! Every bit as great as ST09, if for different reasons. Here they are (and they feature spoilers of course):

1. The one small complaint I had about ST09, which I otherwise felt was an immense ride much like the Indiana Jones films, was that it evaded several of the elements which set ST apart from other sci-fi franchises, i.e. the focus on questions of morality and the commentary on current social issues. That is fully back in STID: The topic, obviously, is terrorism, but the film doesn't take the easy route by saying "Look, here's a fanatic who wants to destroy our way of life, and we must stop him", but complicates the matter by introducing another villain, one Admiral Marcus, who is a Cheney/Rumsfeld kind of hawk looking to turn the cold war with the Klingons hot and thus uses Harrison/Khan to achieve that. If you want to read Khan as an Osama bin Laden type, then this film clearly outlines the genesis of such types. After all, bin Laden was originally a CIA asset in Afghanistan being used in the fight against the opposing party in the Cold War, the invading Soviet Union. The lesson outlined here is that you cannot and should not ally yourself with an enemy just because he so happens to also be the enemy of your enemy. He might turn on YOU after he's done with the common enemy. (Kirk and Spock even have a nice bit of dialogue about this particular problem.) With this single plot choice, the relevance of ST as commentary on history has been restored, if of course it cannot explore the issue as deeply as a TV episode would've done - but then again, this is not really what one could ever expect from a summer blockbuster. And frankly, few if any of the previous Trek films ever did "message" as well as any of the episodes.

2. On a related note, the Kirk-Spock dynamic is now played out to maximum effect with regard to the questions of morality ST is so famous for. Whereas ST09 portrayed their rivalry as petty in certain places (they seemed to be fighting because they annoy each other in their differences of character, much like high school kids would), now, when they're fighting, they do so because they have different approaches to the problem at hand. This means that the conflict between them comes not from the script, but rather from the characters' essences. Particularly in the early part of the film this is evident (a good old Prime Directive discussion) where both are equally right, they just need to learn that the other one's perspective is just as valid as their own and that they can be reconciled. The rest of the film is then precisely about that. This character relationship was probably my favorite part about STID.

3. In my stream of conciousness review here, this would be the place to mention, as some have before me, that there comes a scene late in the film where the writers go a little on the nose with their nostalgic celebration of that classic character relationship. In a remake of sorts of Spock's TWOK death, Kirk is now the one to sacrifice himself for the ship and he and Spock share a goodbye through a plate of glass. It's a scene that works, ultimately, but yes, the word-by-word homage goes just one step too far in its self-referentiality. Much like Spock Prime's line to young Kirk in ST09 "I have been and always shall be...", an iconic line in a different context just doesn't quite have the same impact it used to have.

4. If, however, you feel that as a Star Trek fan, you just can't cope with the new creatives using the franchise as a toy box from which they pull whatever they feel serves their goal best to present an entertaining (and in this case thoughtful) adventure best, you just shouldn't watch the film and content yourself with reruns. The adage is tired, but what Abrams does is truly not your father's (that being "your") Star Trek anymore. In the theater last night, the little self-conscious reactions of some of the Trekkies in the moments mentioned before really got on my nerves.

5. Bad Robot really did a great job of keeping the surprises secret, big or small as they were. While I had been accidentally spoiled as to the villain's identity, I had no idea Leonard Nimoy would be in this. Aces! Or that Pike would die. As for the "big" secret, ultimately, knowing it beforehand didn't change my appreciation in any way. So I wonder if the secrecy was really just a strategy to keep internet geekdom's negativity at bay. We saw four years ago already how militant some people got at barely the idea that the new villain might be Khan. Turns out there was no reason to be so hostile to the idea, the character works perfectly fine and it's an interesting "what if" take on his story. Khan, having been co-opted by the secret service as a super-weapon and his friends being held hostage, has become much more dangerous than his old self was. In fact I would say that the character's motivation is a lot more convincing here than it was in either Space Seed or TWOK. In a very biodeterminist notion in the old stories, he became the villain only because he was created to be ambitious and power-hungry (and later because he wanted the old and tired revenge). Here, he's actually fighting for something. The film convincingly creates a situation halfway through where you could imagine that Khan might actually turn out to be an unlikely hero of the story. It never fully goes there, but the implications are a great bonus for the suspense of the story.

6. Finally, especially the very beginning and the ending once again underscored that Abrams and the writers do unterstand what ST is all about. The film is indeed not about "Darkness", but the pioneer spirit and optimism that sets ST apart and it knows that the crew of the Enterprise are explorers, not warriors (something that cannot be said for all of the first ten films!). Here's hoping that the next film can find a way of bringing more fun and action-packed blockbuster stuff without relying only on fistfights and space battles. I take the Nibiru opening as a tantalizing hint as to what is still possible in this renewed franchise.

Don't let anyone dissuade you. Star Trek Into Darkness is a great film, and a great Star Trek film as well.
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Old May 9 2013, 11:18 AM   #1230
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Re: STAR TREK INTO DARKNESS - Grading & Discussion [SPOILERS]

Thanks for a great and thoughtful review I fully agree with! :-)
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