RSS iconTwitter iconFacebook icon

The Trek BBS title image

The Trek BBS statistics

Threads: 139,743
Posts: 5,433,081
Members: 24,838
Currently online: 448
Newest member: Mei'konda

TrekToday headlines

Episode Four of The Red Shirt Diaries
By: T'Bonz on Sep 22

Star Trek: The Compendium Review
By: T'Bonz on Sep 22

Orci Drops Rangers Project
By: T'Bonz on Sep 22

Retro Review: Image in the Sand
By: Michelle on Sep 20

Star Trek: Shadows Of Tyranny Casting Call
By: T'Bonz on Sep 19

USS Vengeance And More Starship Collection Ships
By: T'Bonz on Sep 19

Trek 3 To Being Shooting Next Year
By: T'Bonz on Sep 19

Trek Messenger Bag
By: T'Bonz on Sep 18

Star Trek Live In Concert In Australia
By: T'Bonz on Sep 18

IDW Publishing December Trek Comics
By: T'Bonz on Sep 17


Welcome! The Trek BBS is the number one place to chat about Star Trek with like-minded fans. Please login to see our full range of forums as well as the ability to send and receive private messages, track your favourite topics and of course join in the discussions.

If you are a new visitor, join us for free. If you are an existing member please login below. Note: for members who joined under our old messageboard system, please login with your display name not your login name.


Go Back   The Trek BBS > Star Trek TV Series > Star Trek - Original Series

Star Trek - Original Series The one that started it all...

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old May 8 2013, 08:28 PM   #271
Timo
Admiral
 
Re: Franz Joseph Blueprints Revisited

I think we need to believe our eyes instead of what someone says.
On this vein, let's rationalize...

SB 11 is located on a planet; some imagery makes it look like a habitable one. Might well be that SB 11 is but one installation on an inhabited world, rather than the entirety of human/UFP presence on that world.

So, while some people might prefer staying at the local drinking establishments, most would quickly depart the starbase after arriving if they possibly could. So let's say the skippers ultimately picked for Kirk's court-martial had already gone to the next city when Stone made his decision, after having had a meeting at the starbase and a quick pint or two, and had to be summoned back... That'd cover the "on their way" part nicely enough.

Why these three were selected, rather than any other three out of the no doubt dozens of skippers and several star ship skippers currently on the planet, isn't that much of a problem. Weird rules govern the selection of jury members everywhere, in civil courts and competitions of all sorts. Hey, for all we know the three were sharing a drink with a court clerk and a lawyer at the beginning of the story because they had just finished processing a previous case! Stone might have picked them for their expertise in the field.

Timo Saloniemi
Timo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 8 2013, 08:43 PM   #272
aridas sofia
Rear Admiral
 
Re: Franz Joseph Blueprints Revisited

I'd say that the fact, that two starship captains had to be brought to Starbase 11 for Kirk's Court-Martial, is evidence that this chart isn't referring to the repair work in orbit of Starbase 11 but is a To-Do-List for all Starships in Starfleet that are either under construction and/or still in need of upgrades.
I suppose it just might also mean that the captains of those starships being repaired were too occupied with say, their ships' repairs to be pulled into a court martial proceeding.
aridas sofia is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 8 2013, 08:47 PM   #273
aridas sofia
Rear Admiral
 
Re: Franz Joseph Blueprints Revisited

Shawnster wrote: View Post
Am I the only person here that thinks more time, effort and thought has gone into this discussion than ever went into thinking about the class of the Starship Enterprise during the entire run of TOS?
This thread is about far more than the class of the starship Enterprise.
aridas sofia is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 8 2013, 08:53 PM   #274
Timo
Admiral
 
Re: Franz Joseph Blueprints Revisited

In any case, we run into the contradiction that star ship skippers are a rare breed (making Kirk's offense stand out and creating a scandal) yet Stone can summon a couple of those in what looks like a matter of hours. Is space really that small? Or is Kirk after all just one out of hundreds of these "special" skippers, and the hundreds of others are all so squeaky-clean that Kirk's misdemeanor will indeed mar the whole service?

If every ship on a "star ship status" chart has a "special" skipper, then it's the second answer all right - SB 11 can't be the only facility in the universe to process star ships, and not 100% of the star ship fleet can be undergoing repairs simultaneously. So, if hundreds of skippers are "elite", how many "mundane" ones are there in Starfleet? Thousands? Tens of thousands?

Timo Saloniemi
Timo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 8 2013, 08:59 PM   #275
aridas sofia
Rear Admiral
 
Re: Franz Joseph Blueprints Revisited

Hundreds of skippers may be elite, but just thirteen of those elites may have been honored with five year deep space missions.
aridas sofia is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 8 2013, 09:10 PM   #276
Timo
Admiral
 
Re: Franz Joseph Blueprints Revisited

...If such a thing even exists. We have discussed the concept before, and there doesn't seem to be any plausible demarcation of a mission of this particular length (in the material of TOS or in the TOS-describing material added by the spinoffs): it's not bookended by port calls, refuelings, or by location or assignment changes. It seems to merely mark the length of Kirk's time at starship command out there ex post facto. And not all of it was spent in exceptional deep space; plenty involved operations near starbases frequented by other Starfleet assets.

It's quite difficult to imagine that being a star ship skipper for five years would be exceptional as such... Yet the "five year mission" of the Enterprise can't plausibly mean much else than a retrospective highlighting of those five years when Jim Kirk commanded her. And that doesn't really make either him or her particularly special (even though in combination, and in retrospect, the two become legend).

Much of "Court Martial" hinges on Kirk being special. Much of it is difficult to justify. Starfleet seems awfully small when so many of Kirk's old mates amass at SB 11 by accident, yet also awfully big when chance brings such large numbers of "special assets" such as star ships to the base. Something has to give - and we could always use this as leverage to force one interpretation of "star ship status" or another.

Timo Saloniemi
Timo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 8 2013, 09:10 PM   #277
Robert Comsol
Commodore
 
Robert Comsol's Avatar
 
Location: USS Berlin
Re: Franz Joseph Blueprints Revisited

Shawnster wrote: View Post
Am I the only person here that thinks more time, effort and thought has gone into this discussion than ever went into thinking about the class of the Starship Enterprise during the entire run of TOS?
No, you are not.

We are trying to compensate for their original lack of interest but obviously do arrive at incompatible interpretations and conclusions.

Bob
__________________
"The first duty of every Starfleet officer is to the truth" Jean-Luc Picard
"We can't solve problems by using the same kind of thinking we used when we created them."
Albert Einstein
Robert Comsol is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 8 2013, 10:06 PM   #278
aridas sofia
Rear Admiral
 
Re: Franz Joseph Blueprints Revisited

Yet the "five year mission" of the Enterprise can't plausibly mean much else than a retrospective highlighting of those five years when Jim Kirk commanded her.
Not likely, since the prologue of each episode plainly stated "These are the voyages of the starship Enterprise. It's five year mission... To boldly go where no man has gone before". While a degree of poetry and hyperbole are permissible given the fact it is a prologue, it nevertheless can't go off half-cock claiming it is about a five year mission to go where no man has gone before if it is about the five years that just so happened to be the captaincy of James Kirk during which he went where people had already been.

What was seen in TOS is certainly not as open and shut as you claim. The fact that only starships like Enterprise were seen and that sometimes they were seen returning to base for resupply and repair can just as easily mean thirteen starships pushing beyond the frontier, zig zagging back when needed to distant starbases, on a five year deep space mission.
aridas sofia is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 8 2013, 10:13 PM   #279
Mysterion
Rear Admiral
 
Mysterion's Avatar
 
Location: SB-31, Daran V
Re: Franz Joseph Blueprints Revisited

aridas sofia wrote: View Post
I'd say that the fact, that two starship captains had to be brought to Starbase 11 for Kirk's Court-Martial, is evidence that this chart isn't referring to the repair work in orbit of Starbase 11 but is a To-Do-List for all Starships in Starfleet that are either under construction and/or still in need of upgrades.
I suppose it just might also mean that the captains of those starships being repaired were too occupied with say, their ships' repairs to be pulled into a court martial proceeding.
This. Also, there could be other conflicts preventing those particular officers from serving on Kirk's Courts Martial Board (prior association with Kirk or Finney, etc.).

I think the chart probably reflects repair/operational status of ships under the control of this particular base, and was probably not meant to be scrutinized quite as much as we have scrutinized it.
__________________
USS Galileo Galilei, NCC-8888
Prima Inter Pares
Mysterion is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 8 2013, 10:43 PM   #280
GSchnitzer
Co-Executive Producer
 
GSchnitzer's Avatar
 
Location: Gaithersburg, Maryland, USA, Terra
Send a message via AIM to GSchnitzer Send a message via Windows Live Messenger to GSchnitzer Send a message via Yahoo to GSchnitzer
Re: Franz Joseph Blueprints Revisited

Robert Comsol wrote: View Post
Sorry, you forgot to circle the court clerk who is showing us his back.

Of course you can either take this scene literal or chalk it off as a production necessity to have many actors in the club including the ones that were not supposed to be there, yet (and seriously, I hadn't noticed their presence in 30 years until the "Court-Martial" thread came up).
Well, I didn't forget the court baliff; I intentionally excluded him. (The discussion was regarding the availability of command personnel to serve on Kirk's Court Martial board, not about the availability of Starbase 11 court functionaries.)

It's funny: having those actors in the club is simply a "production necessity" that we are supposed to shrug off--but a mismatch between 1681/1831 vessel registry numbers or the presence of Star Ships that have 1600 numbers in orbit or up on the Status board requires all kind of crazy logical contortions and gymnastics to explain away those production necessity inconsistencies.
__________________
Greg Schnitzer
Co-Executive Producer
Star Trek Phase II
http://www.startrekphase2.com
http://www.imdb.com/name/nm3348883/
GSchnitzer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 8 2013, 10:51 PM   #281
1001001
Putting the F-U Back in FUN!
 
1001001's Avatar
 
Location: People's Gaypublic of Drugafornia
Re: Franz Joseph Blueprints Revisited

Shawnster wrote: View Post
Am I the only person here that thinks more time, effort and thought has gone into this discussion than ever went into thinking about the class of the Starship Enterprise during the entire run of TOS?
And by a wide margin, too...

__________________
“There is a cult of ignorance in the United States...The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that 'my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge'.” - Isaac Asimov
1001001 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 8 2013, 11:23 PM   #282
FalTorPan
Vice Admiral
 
FalTorPan's Avatar
 
Location: Out there... thataway.
Re: Franz Joseph Blueprints Revisited

I'm just glad that no one thinks the Enterprise is of the Constipation class, named for the NCC-2.
__________________
Watch ASTRONUTS! Visit Trekplace! Check out my personal website!
FalTorPan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 9 2013, 02:14 AM   #283
Shawnster
Fleet Captain
 
Shawnster's Avatar
 
Location: Clinton, OH
Re: Franz Joseph Blueprints Revisited

On that note, a blast from the past

The Adventures of the Starchair Enterpoop
Shawnster is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 9 2013, 02:18 AM   #284
Marsden
Captain
 
Marsden's Avatar
 
Location: Getting killed so the captain can have tea later.
Re: Franz Joseph Blueprints Revisited

FalTorPan wrote: View Post
I'm just glad that no one thinks the Enterprise is of the Constipation class, named for the NCC-2.

That would give a whole new meaning to fire torpedoes!

1001001 wrote: View Post
Shawnster wrote: View Post
Am I the only person here that thinks more time, effort and thought has gone into this discussion than ever went into thinking about the class of the Starship Enterprise during the entire run of TOS?
And by a wide margin, too...

I agree. It's fun, but also a little .... disturbing.

GSchnitzer wrote: View Post
It's funny: having those actors in the club is simply a "production necessity" that we are supposed to shrug off--but a mismatch between 1681/1831 vessel registry numbers or the presence of Star Ships that have 1600 numbers in orbit or up on the Status board requires all kind of crazy logical contortions and gymnastics to explain away those production necessity inconsistencies.
Really. I think it's an unsolvable puzzle because there is literally no right answer, in other words, the creators did not create a right answer so it does not exist. I doubt there is going to be a memo that materializes that explains the whole thing, so speculation is all you could have.
__________________
"A man either lives life as it happens to him, meets it head-on, and licks it. Or he turns his back on it and starts to wither away."
Marsden is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 9 2013, 03:45 PM   #285
Irishman
Fleet Captain
 
Location: Charlotte, NC
Re: Franz Joseph Blueprints Revisited

ZapBrannigan wrote: View Post
The Enterprise blueprints by Franz Joseph have some nice touches that only a fan can pick up on. "There are fourteen science labs aboard this ship!" Count 'em. "I'm in your Deck 6 Briefing Room." And it's there. But I would add a couple of things.

I wish he had included the Emergency Manual Monitor that overlooks the engine room. That's an obvious item and its absence is annoying.

And this thing with the Bridge being offset 36 degrees, that isn't necessary. If I'm not mistaken, FJ overestimated the size of the Bridge floorplan. If you correct for that, you'd have more room in the saucer's exterior structure that houses the Bridge. I think the elevator would then fit over on port side where you'd expect it, and the captain's chair can face forward instead of 36 degrees off.

The supposed elevator housing seen on the ship's exterior could be something else entirely.
Now you understand why fans have been making and remaking these plans since then. None of them have been quite accurate or complete enough.
Irishman is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Tags
blueprint, bridge, franz joseph, plans

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump



All times are GMT +1. The time now is 07:28 AM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.6
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
FireFox 2+ or Internet Explorer 7+ highly recommended.