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Old May 8 2013, 12:53 PM   #706
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Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

Seven was distressed and wanted justice. But that doesn't mean a innocent man should have been punished JUST BECAUSE SHE WANTED IT. The world doesn't revolved around her no matter what the writers want us to believe.

Besides, the weapons dealer was trying to help Voyager in the first place. They lost any ally because the Doctor and Tuvok screwed up.
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Old May 8 2013, 12:59 PM   #707
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Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

Mr. Laser Beam wrote: View Post
cabby wrote: View Post
So officers DO NOT have a duty to follow ALL orders which are given to them as stated above.
No, but like I said, officers are not obligated to follow illegal orders. Janeway's orders WERE LEGAL. You can debate till you're blue in the face if they're MORAL, but they are LEGAL. There is a difference.

So explain to me how arbitrarily ordering a crew-member to their death in a non-emergency situation is legal.
Because Janeway needs Tuvok and Neelix back.

Dream wrote: View Post
No one should be forced sacrifice his or her life for another.
Not until they join the service, anyway (real or fictional). Then they most certainly can be forced.
No it was not a legal order, as established in "The Measure of a Man" a person even an officer has the right to refuse to undergo a procdure that poses an unnecassary risk to their life. Data was determined to have the right to explore his own being.

Would Janeway have a made a different decision if at least one of the people involved in the accident weren't close to her?
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Old May 8 2013, 01:09 PM   #708
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Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

Gov Kodos wrote: View Post
Bull, a badly written episode. That clown got what he deserved.
I saw a movie, could have been a detective drama, where this guy served ten years for the murder of another bloke. After the first guy gets out of the joint, he randomly runs into the supposed to be dead fellah he had been convicted of murdering and logically works out on the spot that he's legally allowed to kill the second guy because he's already served the time for the crime.

By your logic, the weapons dealer was allowed to r... It wasn't rape, what he did was just nanoprobe harvesting which was an allegory for rape, but he was allowed to be guilty and have done almost anything to Seven just because Janeway had killed him... If he survived? But then he wouldn't be dead and wouldn't have earned the right to bind Seven to a table and remove all her probes.

Gov Kodos wrote: View Post
What would Borg enhanced eidetic memory be worth, anyway? Certainly, the writers forgot about it. Screw him, and frag him.
Was that before or after the Voyager Conspiracy?
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Old May 8 2013, 01:12 PM   #709
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Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

Gov Kodos wrote: View Post
What would Borg enhanced eidetic memory be worth, anyway?
You keep going on about her perfect memory, when it was established that Seven's memories couldn't be trusted in this very episode. Seems like you only choose to go with what you think is convenient.

Janeway herself says they were all responsible for the merchant's death at the end of the episode.
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Old May 8 2013, 09:08 PM   #710
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Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

Sanctimonious twaddle from that episode. Nothing more.
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Old May 8 2013, 10:09 PM   #711
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Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

MacLeod wrote: View Post
as established in "The Measure of a Man" a person even an officer has the right to refuse to undergo a procdure that poses an unnecassary risk to their life. Data was determined to have the right to explore his own being.
IIRC, that ruling applied only to Data specifically.
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Old May 8 2013, 10:36 PM   #712
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Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

Hey thread!!

I hope you all have a great time talking about Tuvix today and did you know that Tuvix the episode turned 17 years old on May 6th??

Have a wonderful time chewing on your ancient television, I am leaving the house right now to see Star Trek Into Darkness, that's right..

BRAND NEW STAR TREK!!!

Enjoy your tragic murdering moral dilemmas of yore!
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Old May 8 2013, 10:59 PM   #713
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Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

^I will also be shortly departing to the cinema to see ST: ITD. For once it's going to be nice not to have to avoid this place because of spoilers.
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Old May 8 2013, 11:32 PM   #714
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Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

Just remember. People who post spoilers deserve to be stabbed 194 times with a spork.
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Old May 8 2013, 11:36 PM   #715
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Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

Spork is the result of Cumby's plan to kill Kirk and Spock in a transporter accident. Only Spork is too awesome for the Federation and becomes a target of Cumby, Starfleet, and the crew of the Enterprise, as Uhura refuses to lose her man or sleep with Kirk in any form.
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Old May 9 2013, 12:22 AM   #716
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Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

I'm not going to till tomorrow. Stupid children being so damn uncooperative. The world over, 400 kids every hour are lured into white panel vans by candy, but no I have to delay gratification because some punk 7 year old thinks that spending time with his family on his birthday is more important.

Or I could just take him swimming tomorrow and go myself today?
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Old May 9 2013, 12:30 AM   #717
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Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

Janeway also agreed to leave her lizard babies she gave birth to in "Threshold" on a planet to fend for themselves. Instead of taking responsibility for her actions and taking care of her young, she liked condemned them to DEATH.

What an awful person.
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Old May 9 2013, 12:32 AM   #718
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Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

Keep to the Code, those that fall behind get left behind.
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Old May 9 2013, 01:42 AM   #719
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Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

Mr. Laser Beam wrote: View Post
Dream wrote: View Post
it was murder. Janeway took Tuvix's life away without his consent.
His consent is not required. Tuvix is still a member of the crew, and wanted to be treated as such. There are many instances where a military commander may order a subordinate to sacrifice his or her own life. Consent is not required.
As I understand it, those instances have to be in the performance of essential duties. Janeway can order Chief Engineer Torres to enter a radiation-flooded chamber to dump a breaching warp corp, even if the consequence of this is Torres's death; she does not have the authority to simply order Torres to die. That would still constitute homicide, and be punishable by a court-martial.

ETA:


Gov Kodos wrote: View Post
Fix the glitch. Its only a question because the minds were combined, if it were only the bodies this wouldn't be an issue.
Personhood is defined by the presence of a mind. If two minds cease to exist and a new mind is created from the mixture, then those two persons have died and a new person has been created.
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Last edited by Sci; May 9 2013 at 01:54 AM.
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Old May 9 2013, 01:50 AM   #720
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Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

Sci wrote: View Post
As I understand it, those instances have to be in the performance of essential duties. Janeway can order Chief Engineer Torres to enter a radiation-flooded chamber to dump a breaching warp corp, even if the consequence of this is Torres's death; she does not have the authority to simply order Torres to die. That would still constitute homicide, and be punishable by a court-martial.
Yes, court martial Janeway for her actions.
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