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Old May 1 2013, 10:11 PM   #646
teya
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Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

horatio83 wrote: View Post
Perhaps I am stupid but I fail to see in what way the Tuvix accident is related to organ donation. It's not like some evil doctor took Tuvok and Neelix and cooked a Frankenstein monster out of them. It was rather an accident that happened without the involvement of any agency, it was a symbiotic plant getting into the transporter.
I don't think you're stupid. I'm at a loss, myself, and I did my medical ethics thesis on the ethical issues in organ transplantation. Granted that was back in the mid-90s, but I've remained fairly up to date on the technology involved and the ethical issues. I have made reference to live donor transplants, but that's the only place I see any possible correlation, and the argument would benefit Tuvix.

It is, as you say, an episode that puts Janeway in a no-win situation. And the thing is, she knew it. Look at her face at the end of the episode. She's not clapping Tuvok & Neelix on the back and smiling broadly at their return. She says a curt, "Glad to have you back" and walks into the hall where she pauses with a look that says the entire weight of the universe is on her shoulders.

She isn't happy with what she just had to do. She will, however, live with it.
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Old May 1 2013, 10:21 PM   #647
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Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

teya wrote: View Post
It is, as you say, an episode that puts Janeway in a no-win situation. And the thing is, she knew it. Look at her face at the end of the episode. She's not clapping Tuvok & Neelix on the back and smiling broadly at their return. She says a curt, "Glad to have you back" and walks into the hall where she pauses with a look that says the entire weight of the universe is on her shoulders.

She isn't happy with what she just had to do. She will, however, live with it.
I, too, liked how that last bit was played. However, I always thought the issue warranted a somewhat more extensive discussion. Or a discussion at all. The way it is presented – with no-one from the crew, not counting the Doctor, supporting Tuvix heart-breaking pleading to let him live – makes the crew look very cruel. One moment they act like Tuvix' friends, the next they assist in his murder.

I would have been nice, if they had presented some kind of coda to the episode. Just a little scene right after (or before) the execution on sickbay, where Janeway gets the chance to voice some sort of ambivalence about the thing she has just done. The way it is shown makes it look like a much too easy decision for her.
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Old May 1 2013, 10:32 PM   #648
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Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

I see Janeway as the ultimate sin eater. She not only took on the sin, she committed the sin to save her 2 crewmen.

This vid is stopped at the Tuvix mark.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yQgLR...tailpage#t=92s

Yeah... I "know" it was wrong, but I also know IF I was Tuvok, or Neelix, then I would want her to sav me.



I know, I know, it is selfish, it is "wrong", but I would still want her to do it. And by "her" doing it, not only do I get to live but I don't even have to carry the sin of Tuvix' death on my conscience. SHE did that... for me.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yQgLR...ailpage#t=121s

She didn't even pretend it was right.

She didn't even pretend he didn't exist.

She turned to watch Tuvix die, as Neelix & Tuvok were "reborn".

And then she left, without a word to the men she saved.
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Old May 1 2013, 10:35 PM   #649
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Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

Yeah that scene were Tuvix was reaching out to anyone, begging for someone to support him was just plain powerful and awesome in it's morbidness.
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Old May 1 2013, 10:36 PM   #650
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Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

JanewayRulz! wrote: View Post
I see Janeway as the ultimate sin eater.
That's a terrific analogy.
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Old May 2 2013, 01:33 AM   #651
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Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

teya wrote: View Post
horatio83 wrote: View Post
Perhaps I am stupid but I fail to see in what way the Tuvix accident is related to organ donation. It's not like some evil doctor took Tuvok and Neelix and cooked a Frankenstein monster out of them. It was rather an accident that happened without the involvement of any agency, it was a symbiotic plant getting into the transporter.
I don't think you're stupid. I'm at a loss, myself, and I did my medical ethics thesis on the ethical issues in organ transplantation. Granted that was back in the mid-90s, but I've remained fairly up to date on the technology involved and the ethical issues. I have made reference to live donor transplants, but that's the only place I see any possible correlation, and the argument would benefit Tuvix.

It is, as you say, an episode that puts Janeway in a no-win situation. And the thing is, she knew it. Look at her face at the end of the episode. She's not clapping Tuvok & Neelix on the back and smiling broadly at their return. She says a curt, "Glad to have you back" and walks into the hall where she pauses with a look that says the entire weight of the universe is on her shoulders.

She isn't happy with what she just had to do. She will, however, live with it.
Tuvok is an organ.

Neelix is an organ.

Were they donated?

No.

Were they stolen?

No.

(Maybe it's comparable to being switched at birth?

Can you blame the mother for loving the wrong baby, or the children for stealing each others toys and crapping in some one elses diapers?)

But Janeway retroactively decided that because "Tuvix could not speak for Tuvok and Neelix" permission for the hybrids conception, and the continued re-ratification of their ongoing existence, would never have been given if the two original components had been allowed to decide for themselves before the meld and then periodically after integration to weigh if Tuvix is worth their deaths and then periodically ad infinitum still worth their deaths.

No permission = stolen.

(Why am I thinking about a mother refusing to breast feed because they're sure that their baby is an asshole?)

HA!

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Old May 5 2013, 04:24 AM   #652
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Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

R. Star wrote: View Post
Yeah that scene were Tuvix was reaching out to anyone, begging for someone to support him was just plain powerful and awesome in it's morbidness.
Heart breaking scene for sure. You know that Janeway made the right choice but that scene makes me question it. I can see this episode on a level of logig versus emotions.
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Old May 7 2013, 08:44 PM   #653
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Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

Brit wrote: View Post
R. Star wrote: View Post
Brit wrote: View Post

And when you don't deconstruct Tuvix once you know how to restore Tuvok and Neelix, then you have murdered them. The questioning point is not the accident, but later when the ability to restore two people to the bodies that they in fact own. To not do so is not only murder, it is most likely against the law. The right to your own body is the argument and not who is murdering who.
That's the moral equivalent of saying it's murder not to harvest someone's organs against their will to save the lives of two terminally ill patients.
Except the evidence we saw shows these two persons were not terminally ill. Their so call illness was a result of an accident. No fault of their own. They are sentient people, and they have a long standing claim on the property in question. Tuvix is not the donor in this situation he is the recipient.

It is more like a sniper taking out someone holding two people hostage.
Of course Tuvok and Neelix are not terminally ill. They are dead. Their consciousness and brain function have ceased. They are not sentient, because they do not exist.

The sniper analogy doesn't at all fit. Tuvix is not committing a crime and has done nothing to perpetrate this. He is a sentient being. That he exists due to an accident is irrelevant. Only his status as a sentient being is relevant.

If we are going to stick with the flawed organ donation analogy, it would be more like a person donating a kidney, having their remaining kidney fail and a attempt to take it back from the recipient.
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Old May 7 2013, 09:59 PM   #654
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Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

Tuvix may not be committing a crime, as such, but remember the argument posited earlier - that Tuvix, as a Starfleet officer (due to Tuvok's memories) should be willing to sacrifice himself for the greater good. I'm having a hard time being against this argument. If Tuvix insists on his own life, is this not contrary to that spirit of self-sacrifice that every Starfleet officer is expected to have?
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Old May 7 2013, 10:13 PM   #655
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Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

Mr. Laser Beam wrote: View Post
Tuvix may not be committing a crime, as such, but remember the argument posited earlier - that Tuvix, as a Starfleet officer (due to Tuvok's memories) should be willing to sacrifice himself for the greater good. I'm having a hard time being against this argument. If Tuvix insists on his own life, is this not contrary to that spirit of self-sacrifice that every Starfleet officer is expected to have?
I don't see Tuvix as part of Voyager's crew, he was clearly a new type of life form.

Besides, Worf never donated his blood the the dying Romulan even for the greater good. Picard could have ordered him to, but he didn't. In the end Worf kept his respect for his captain.
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Old May 7 2013, 10:19 PM   #656
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Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

Dream wrote: View Post
Mr. Laser Beam wrote: View Post
Tuvix may not be committing a crime, as such, but remember the argument posited earlier - that Tuvix, as a Starfleet officer (due to Tuvok's memories) should be willing to sacrifice himself for the greater good. I'm having a hard time being against this argument. If Tuvix insists on his own life, is this not contrary to that spirit of self-sacrifice that every Starfleet officer is expected to have?
I don't see Tuvix as part of Voyager's crew, he was clearly a new type of life form.

Besides, Worf never donated his blood the the dying Romulan even for the greater good. Picard could have ordered him to, but he didn't. In the end Worf kept his respect for his captain.
That's what made The Enemy a great episode. Worf really surprised me in that one when he didn't do the "right" thing by saving the Romulan, who by his own admission didn't want the "klingon filth" in his body anyways.

Even as Bochra and Geordi built a bridge, Worf and his Romulan still had a long way to go. You wonder if Season 7 of DS9 Worf would've done it. Still, it's a very... real... episode.
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Old May 7 2013, 10:20 PM   #657
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Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

Dream wrote: View Post

I don't see Tuvix as part of Voyager's crew, he was clearly a new type of life form.
Tuvix had all of Tuvok's knowledge and experiences. He was clearly qualified to be the tactical officer if required.
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Old May 7 2013, 10:23 PM   #658
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Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

Mr. Laser Beam wrote: View Post
Dream wrote: View Post

I don't see Tuvix as part of Voyager's crew, he was clearly a new type of life form.
Tuvix had all of Tuvok's knowledge and experiences. He was clearly qualified to be the tactical officer if required.
The only nitpick I have is he should've had one of those "provisional" rank badges... heck, Paris should've too though. Janeway does play favorites.
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Old May 7 2013, 10:27 PM   #659
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Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

Mr. Laser Beam wrote: View Post
Tuvix had all of Tuvok's knowledge and experiences. He was clearly qualified to be the tactical officer if required.
Tuvix also had all of Neelix's knowledge and experiences.

Janeway would have no right to order Neelix to save another at the cost of his own life.
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Old May 7 2013, 10:30 PM   #660
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Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

Mr. Laser Beam wrote: View Post
Tuvix may not be committing a crime, as such, but remember the argument posited earlier - that Tuvix, as a Starfleet officer (due to Tuvok's memories) should be willing to sacrifice himself for the greater good. I'm having a hard time being against this argument. If Tuvix insists on his own life, is this not contrary to that spirit of self-sacrifice that every Starfleet officer is expected to have?
Would you sacrifice yourself to bring back someone from the dead? (Which Tuvok & Neelix are).

This, however, is an irrelevant point. While Tuvix's actions can be debated morally, that is not the question we are asking. The question regards the morality of Janeway's actions (the arbitrary killing of a sentient being in order to save another).
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