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Old May 7 2013, 08:17 PM   #46
Scotty
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Re: “In Conversation” or “Berman and Braga vs the world.”

gblews wrote: View Post
horatio83 wrote: View Post
JirinPanthosa wrote: View Post
... people who push boundaries and have original ideas ...
Like wanting to set the first season on Earth?
You know, I'm certainly no apologist for the Beebs, lord knows I'v done my share of bashing, but please tell me what is not original and not boundary pushing about starting a Trek series on Earth? This would have been revolutionary for a Trek series and honestly, I have wanted for years to see what this would have looked like. It may have turned out terribly, it's Rick and Brannon circa 2001 afterall, but it would surely have been original.

If I misunderstood your post, let me know.
It would've depended on what kind of stories they wanted to tell on Earth. But neither Berman or Braga gave any examples of what the show would look like in that setting. But let's be clear. B&B only wanted to set the first half of season 1 on Earth, so presumably the rest of the season would've looked pretty much the same as the first half of season one eventually did. In the end, the show would return to the familiar alien of the week, episodic premise.
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Old May 7 2013, 08:17 PM   #47
horatio83
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Re: “In Conversation” or “Berman and Braga vs the world.”

gblews wrote: View Post
horatio83 wrote: View Post
JirinPanthosa wrote: View Post
... people who push boundaries and have original ideas ...
Like wanting to set the first season on Earth?
You know, I'm certainly no apologist for the Beebs, lord knows I'v done my share of bashing, but please tell me what is not original and not boundary pushing about starting a Trek series on Earth? This would have been revolutionary for a Trek series and honestly, I have wanted for years to see what this would have looked like. It may have turned out terribly, it's Rick and Brannon circa 2001 afterall, but it would surely have been original.

If I misunderstood your post, let me know.
I totally agree. It might have not worked out but it would definitely had been something new. That's why I don't understand the claim that Berman did not want to push the boundaries, it were rather the executives who wanted to play it safe.


Scotty wrote: View Post
presumably the rest of the season would've looked pretty much the same as the first half of season one eventually did. In the end, the show would return to the familiar alien of the week, episodic premise.
No, it would have looked more like Season 4, exploring Earth's neighbourhood before the NX-01 heads into deep space.
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Old May 7 2013, 08:55 PM   #48
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Re: “In Conversation” or “Berman and Braga vs the world.”

Scotty wrote: View Post
gblews wrote: View Post
horatio83 wrote: View Post
Like wanting to set the first season on Earth?
You know, I'm certainly no apologist for the Beebs, lord knows I'v done my share of bashing, but please tell me what is not original and not boundary pushing about starting a Trek series on Earth? This would have been revolutionary for a Trek series and honestly, I have wanted for years to see what this would have looked like. It may have turned out terribly, it's Rick and Brannon circa 2001 afterall, but it would surely have been original.

If I misunderstood your post, let me know.
It would've depended on what kind of stories they wanted to tell on Earth. But neither Berman or Braga gave any examples of what the show would look like in that setting. But let's be clear. B&B only wanted to set the first half of season 1 on Earth, so presumably the rest of the season would've looked pretty much the same as the first half of season one eventually did. In the end, the show would return to the familiar alien of the week, episodic premise.
From what I remember hearing on that Geek roundtable that TrekMovie linked to a while back, Braga's idea was to have S1 start with a Klingon attack and end with the launch of Enterprise. The rest would've been political stuff (which Braga said was why Broken Bow was one of his favorites in S1) and character intro/building (I guess). It's impossible to tell what it would've been like, since it got killed so early in the process in favor of more "planet/alien of the week" stuff that Braga hated (based on his comments in the interview).
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Old May 7 2013, 08:56 PM   #49
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Re: “In Conversation” or “Berman and Braga vs the world.”

horatio83 wrote: View Post
Scotty wrote: View Post
presumably the rest of the season would've looked pretty much the same as the first half of season one eventually did. In the end, the show would return to the familiar alien of the week, episodic premise.
No, it would have looked more like Season 4, exploring Earth's neighbourhood before the NX-01 heads into deep space.
A baseless assumption. This is just wishful thinking on your part. Nowhere do Berman or Braga state this as their intent. Furthermore, the writers responsible for season 4 weren't part of the creative staff yet.
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Old May 7 2013, 09:07 PM   #50
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Re: “In Conversation” or “Berman and Braga vs the world.”

bullethead wrote: View Post
From what I remember hearing on that Geek roundtable that TrekMovie linked to a while back, Braga's idea was to have S1 start with a Klingon attack and end with the launch of Enterprise. The rest would've been political stuff (which Braga said was why Broken Bow was one of his favorites in S1) and character intro/building (I guess). It's impossible to tell what it would've been like, since it got killed so early in the process in favor of more "planet/alien of the week" stuff that Braga hated (based on his comments in the interview).
Oh goody! Political stuff! You mean Vulcans and humans were going to spend an entire season making snide remarks about another. Innovative!

In all honesty, that wouldn't have appealed to this Trek fan at all. Maybe if Ron Moore, Ira Behr or even Manny Coto had been showrunner, I'd be curious. But worldbuilding or character development were never Braga's strong suit.
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Old May 7 2013, 10:16 PM   #51
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Re: “In Conversation” or “Berman and Braga vs the world.”

Scotty wrote: View Post
horatio83 wrote: View Post
Scotty wrote: View Post
presumably the rest of the season would've looked pretty much the same as the first half of season one eventually did. In the end, the show would return to the familiar alien of the week, episodic premise.
No, it would have looked more like Season 4, exploring Earth's neighbourhood before the NX-01 heads into deep space.
A baseless assumption. This is just wishful thinking on your part. Nowhere do Berman or Braga state this as their intent. Furthermore, the writers responsible for season 4 weren't part of the creative staff yet.
Bullshit, exploring Earth's neighbourhood is the natural step between being on Earth and deep space.
Get a grip and accept the fact that it was the studio and not Berman who buried all innovative idea.
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Old May 7 2013, 10:19 PM   #52
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Re: “In Conversation” or “Berman and Braga vs the world.”

horatio83 wrote: View Post
Scotty wrote: View Post
horatio83 wrote: View Post

No, it would have looked more like Season 4, exploring Earth's neighbourhood before the NX-01 heads into deep space.
A baseless assumption. This is just wishful thinking on your part. Nowhere do Berman or Braga state this as their intent. Furthermore, the writers responsible for season 4 weren't part of the creative staff yet.
Bullshit, exploring Earth's neighbourhood is the natural step between being on Earth and deep space.
Get a grip and accept the fact that it was the studio and not Berman who buried all innovative idea.
Seriously... do you have to talk down to -everyone- who doesn't share your opinion?
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Old May 7 2013, 10:41 PM   #53
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Re: “In Conversation” or “Berman and Braga vs the world.”

I am the talking down because I have the audacity to not use a euphemism for bullshit after have been accused of wishful thinking for saying that step B comes between step A and C? Seriously?
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Old May 7 2013, 11:07 PM   #54
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Re: “In Conversation” or “Berman and Braga vs the world.”

horatio83 wrote: View Post
I am the talking down because I have the audacity to not use a euphemism for bullshit after have been accused of wishful thinking for saying that step B comes between step A and C? Seriously?
While you may be right, it would've been a totally different writing staff handling the stories. So the likely result would've looked much, much different than season four.
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Old May 7 2013, 11:15 PM   #55
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Re: “In Conversation” or “Berman and Braga vs the world.”

horatio83 wrote: View Post
Get a grip and accept the fact that it was the studio and not Berman who buried all innovative idea.
The show's suckiness was still Berman's and Braga's fault, they were the showrunners. If the studio and network don't like a certain idea it's the showrunners' job to make the approved version work.

The studio didn't bury all innovative ideas, it buried an innovative idea (but innovative doesn't equal good, so it could have been the best decision ever made, we have no idea how it would have turned out). They wanted planets of the week and that's not a problem in itself, they never said "Don't be innovative", if you can't have your innovative season arc, do innovative standalone episodes instead.
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Old May 7 2013, 11:17 PM   #56
horatio83
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Re: “In Conversation” or “Berman and Braga vs the world.”

BillJ wrote: View Post
horatio83 wrote: View Post
I am the talking down because I have the audacity to not use a euphemism for bullshit after have been accused of wishful thinking for saying that step B comes between step A and C? Seriously?
While you may be right, it would've been a totally different writing staff handling the stories. So the likely result would've looked much, much different than season four.
I agree, it would have still felt too much like a 24th century show. Not that the 23rd century stuff from the last season was per se better, I think it was only better because they often gave it a new spin.
Furthermore a story like Demons / Terra Prime which dealt with Earth problems, the kind of story which should have come first, is of course not imaginable without the Reeves-Stevenses.

So yeah, I totally agree that this wouldn't have been a total game-changer. I like Berman and Braga but it is undeniable that they worked too long for Trek such their story-telling patterns became too familiar to the audience. Take an non-genuine 22nd century story like Vox Sola, it felt like a left-over script from VOY. They had ideas like making Journey to Babel the benchmark for the relations between the future four founding members of the Federation and most of the stories which dealt with Vulcans or Andorians were good ... but there weren't enough of these genuine 22nd century stories.
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Old May 8 2013, 08:41 AM   #57
Scotty
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Re: “In Conversation” or “Berman and Braga vs the world.”

horatio83 wrote: View Post
BillJ wrote: View Post
horatio83 wrote: View Post
I am the talking down because I have the audacity to not use a euphemism for bullshit after have been accused of wishful thinking for saying that step B comes between step A and C? Seriously?
While you may be right, it would've been a totally different writing staff handling the stories. So the likely result would've looked much, much different than season four.
I agree, [...] a story like Demons / Terra Prime which dealt with Earth problems, the kind of story which should have come first, is of course not imaginable without the Reeves-Stevenses.
So yeah, I totally agree that this wouldn't have been a total game-changer. I like Berman and Braga but it is undeniable that they worked too long for Trek such their story-telling patterns became too familiar to the audience.
That is the point I was trying to make as well. So it seems we are in agreement, whether you like it or not.
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Old May 8 2013, 06:13 PM   #58
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Re: “In Conversation” or “Berman and Braga vs the world.”

horatio83 wrote: View Post
Scotty wrote: View Post
horatio83 wrote: View Post

No, it would have looked more like Season 4, exploring Earth's neighbourhood before the NX-01 heads into deep space.
A baseless assumption. This is just wishful thinking on your part. Nowhere do Berman or Braga state this as their intent. Furthermore, the writers responsible for season 4 weren't part of the creative staff yet.
Bullshit, exploring Earth's neighbourhood is the natural step between being on Earth and deep space.
Get a grip and accept the fact that it was the studio and not Berman who buried all innovative idea.
Berman being all for squashing innovation would make perfect sense as he wanted the small flicker of a flame to last as long as possible so I even think he was forced to make it a prequel even to at least make it somewhat different and distinct otherwise he might not have even been in favor of that as sausages were sausages to him.
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Old May 8 2013, 07:34 PM   #59
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Re: “In Conversation” or “Berman and Braga vs the world.”

horatio83 wrote: View Post
Damage? Bullshit.
Yes, damage. Enterprise was in no small way responsible for Trek going comatose - that's damage!

I love the show.
Fine by me.

And if you don't like it don't watch it.
That is exactly what I and the majority of Trek fans did - we stopped watching en mass. To the point where it was the first Trek series in 35-40 years to be cancelled. Again, damage. It's failure tainted and scared the brand.

By objective measures and standards Berman and Braga failed. For that failure they should apologize.

Also, they were not motivated by the ideals of creating art, but rather to produce a "product" and extend a brand. As a consumer of that product, and devotee of that brand, I am very much within my rights to voice my displeasure when I feel it fails to meet my standards for quality and excellence as well as to call upon those responsible for a perceived loss of quality to apologize for their failure (and Enterprise by the standard to which it was born and held to was an unmitigated failure).
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Old May 8 2013, 07:57 PM   #60
horatio83
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Re: “In Conversation” or “Berman and Braga vs the world.”

Not that one should take anybody seriously who uses the word objective while talking about art/entertainment in the first place. ... but ENT got canceled when it became good and while Coto was in control. So much about blaming Berman and Braga and how cancellation reveals anything objectively about the quality of a TV show. Hell, I guess Firefly has to be a shitty show because it got canceled. I ain't gonna watch that.

Your last paragraph sounds like an involuntary piece of self-satire. If Trek is just the equivalent of a piece of toilet paper for you I suggest that you call Paramount hotline and place your consumer complaint and your demand for an apology there.
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