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Old May 7 2013, 11:24 AM   #151
MacLeod
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Location: Great Britain
Re: 5 year old given rifle as gift, kills 2 year old sister

You know we'll have this debate again and again because unfortunantly they'll be another shooting incident in the States like Sandy Hook, Virginia Tech, Columbine etc...

Yes we all know that guns don't kill people, people kill people. It is however fair to say that the US has one of the highest rates of firearm realted murders out of what we would say are the developed nations (OECD, G20). Now of course other countries have their own problems which country doesn't? In 1996 both Australlia (Port Arthur) and the United Kingdom (Dunbalne) suffered from a mass shooting event, these events resulted in a public outcry leading to tighter gun laws. The response in the US seems to be an initial outcry that something must be down, only for little if anything to be down and a case of acceptance that these events happen and nothing we do can stop them from occuring. Which is true, in so far as all that can be done is to reduce the chance of such an event occuring.

Now I'm not a parent, but to me it would seem protecting my childs life is more important than the right to own a gun. If a gun ban would reduce the risk to my I'd take it.

Now of course places like Switzerland has high gun ownership but not as many of the problems realting to guns as the US. But is that in part due to the fact of National service? Or something else, or a combination of things?
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Old May 7 2013, 11:58 AM   #152
Timelord Victorious
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Re: 5 year old given rifle as gift, kills 2 year old sister

http://edition.cnn.com/video/#/video...f-backpack.cnn

Companies start developing and selling bulletproof armor for kids as a reaction to school shootings now.

It certainly is a better step than putting guns into kids hands, but it stinks of resignation and acceptance of the concept of unavoidability of massacres and making a huge profit on top.
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Old May 7 2013, 12:59 PM   #153
farmkid
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Re: 5 year old given rifle as gift, kills 2 year old sister

MacLeod wrote: View Post
If a gun ban would reduce the risk to my I'd take it.

Now of course places like Switzerland has high gun ownership but not as many of the problems realting to guns as the US. But is that in part due to the fact of National service? Or something else, or a combination of things?
And there's the issue right there. Pro-gun control people see it as obvious that the presence of guns is the core of the problem, so anything done to restrict guns will reduce these events. Since the presence of guns is the problem, then anyone who who doesn't want more restrictions obviously doesn't care about protecting children. Gun rights people, on the other hand, believe the problem is not the presence of guns, but is the fault of those committing these acts. Restricting gun sales/bullet sales/ownership/etc. will have no effect on these events because those who would do these things obviously have no regard for the law. Such laws would only punish law-abiding people who aren't a threat anyway.

The root of the whole debate is that one side believes guns are the problem becuase if guns weren't around then crazy people couldn't get them and the other believes guns aren't a problem but the crazy people are. Neither side seems capable of even understanding the other side.
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Old May 7 2013, 01:07 PM   #154
gturner
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Re: 5 year old given rifle as gift, kills 2 year old sister

iguana_tonante wrote: View Post
gturner wrote: View Post
So cowboys who wear guns on their hips and drive blah blah blah
I like it how you blather to distract from the fact that your "statistics" were completely invented.

As usual.
Except that up thread we have "When Wyoming's number of murders is in single digits - Yes, it is below the British murder rate."

But how did you change the focus to just England and Wales when I was comparing Wyoming statistics to the UK, which includes Scotland and Northern Ireland, and whose murder rates are higher than England and Wales (in 2011 Scotland was at 2.34 and Northern Ireland was at 1.52).

It's not like I'm shifting the subject to the gun-friendly states that have a lower murder rate than Wyoming.
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Old May 7 2013, 02:05 PM   #155
MacLeod
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Re: 5 year old given rifle as gift, kills 2 year old sister

farmkid wrote: View Post
MacLeod wrote: View Post
If a gun ban would reduce the risk to my I'd take it.

Now of course places like Switzerland has high gun ownership but not as many of the problems realting to guns as the US. But is that in part due to the fact of National service? Or something else, or a combination of things?
And there's the issue right there. Pro-gun control people see it as obvious that the presence of guns is the core of the problem, so anything done to restrict guns will reduce these events. Since the presence of guns is the problem, then anyone who who doesn't want more restrictions obviously doesn't care about protecting children. Gun rights people, on the other hand, believe the problem is not the presence of guns, but is the fault of those committing these acts. Restricting gun sales/bullet sales/ownership/etc. will have no effect on these events because those who would do these things obviously have no regard for the law. Such laws would only punish law-abiding people who aren't a threat anyway.

The root of the whole debate is that one side believes guns are the problem becuase if guns weren't around then crazy people couldn't get them and the other believes guns aren't a problem but the crazy people are. Neither side seems capable of even understanding the other side.
So are you saying hypothetically speaking if Guns where banned in the US or more highly regulated that it wouldn't reduce the risk of a "crazy" person getting hold of one?

No law passed by Parliament or Act of Congress will ever prevent a shooting incident form occuring, it can however reduce the risk of such an event occuring.

Or would you disagree with that statement?

Or how about this in a democracy the will of the majority is usually carried out.

From gallup

http://www.gallup.com/poll/160085/am...-violence.aspx

In that poll it seems the majority are in favour of some reforms to the existing gun laws.
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Old May 7 2013, 02:23 PM   #156
Miss Chicken
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Re: 5 year old given rifle as gift, kills 2 year old sister

gturner wrote: View Post
iguana_tonante wrote: View Post
gturner wrote: View Post
So cowboys who wear guns on their hips and drive blah blah blah
I like it how you blather to distract from the fact that your "statistics" were completely invented.

As usual.
Except that up thread we have "When Wyoming's number of murders is in single digits - Yes, it is below the British murder rate."

But how did you change the focus to just England and Wales when I was comparing Wyoming statistics to the UK, which includes Scotland and Northern Ireland, and whose murder rates are higher than England and Wales (in 2011 Scotland was at 2.34 and Northern Ireland was at 1.52).

It's not like I'm shifting the subject to the gun-friendly states that have a lower murder rate than Wyoming.
I have come to realise that when I made that statement i was comparing Wyoming murder rate to Britain's intentional homicide rate. This was a mistake as 'intentional homicide' actually include some forms of manslaughter (i.e. non-negligent manslaughter) which are excluded from the Wyoming numbers that deal only with murder. I am not sure what the murder rate for Britain actually is.

The figures you quote for Scotland and Northern Ireland also seems to be for intentional homicide rather than just murders.
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Old May 7 2013, 02:27 PM   #157
Gary7
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Re: 5 year old given rifle as gift, kills 2 year old sister

The "smoking gun" here is indeed mental health. But that problem is so difficult to control that one can only fall back on the implement used, which can cause rapid deaths in short order. Violent people are generally not easily deterred. If it's not guns they can use, they'll find ways to create makeshift explosives.

What still gets me is how reactive people are. Nobody got chills down their spine seeing these massive assault weapons easily purchased by the general public? Apparently not enough... have to wait until someone misuses them. Just confounds the dickens out of me.
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Old May 7 2013, 03:02 PM   #158
MacLeod
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Re: 5 year old given rifle as gift, kills 2 year old sister

Miss Chicken wrote: View Post
gturner wrote: View Post
iguana_tonante wrote: View Post
I like it how you blather to distract from the fact that your "statistics" were completely invented.

As usual.
Except that up thread we have "When Wyoming's number of murders is in single digits - Yes, it is below the British murder rate."

But how did you change the focus to just England and Wales when I was comparing Wyoming statistics to the UK, which includes Scotland and Northern Ireland, and whose murder rates are higher than England and Wales (in 2011 Scotland was at 2.34 and Northern Ireland was at 1.52).

It's not like I'm shifting the subject to the gun-friendly states that have a lower murder rate than Wyoming.
I have come to realise that when I made that statement i was comparing Wyoming murder rate to Britain's intentional homicide rate. This was a mistake as 'intentional homicide' actually include some forms of manslaughter (i.e. non-negligent manslaughter) which are excluded from the Wyoming numbers that deal only with murder. I am not sure what the murder rate for Britain actually is.

The figures you quote for Scotland and Northern Ireland also seems to be for intentional homicide rather than just murders.
This is what I managed to find

http://www.citizensreportuk.org/repo...olence-uk.html

UK (Great Britain) Total Murder / Homicide numbers and rate 2011/2012
Total UK population in 2011 (census 2011) was 63,181,775
Total Murders / Homicides in UK (England, Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland) in the financial year 2011/12 is 663 (was 777 in 2010/11)
Total UK murder / homicide rate in 2011/12 is 10.5 (was 12.3 in 2010/11) figure is per 1 million population

If you look at the data it says in 2011/12 of those murder/homicide rates in England and Wales 39 were carried out with a gun whilst 5 were carried out in Scotland. The figure for Northern Ireland wasn't provided so we have at least 44 minimum with a maximum of 67 (23 murders in N. Ireland). Which accounting for population size (the US being around 4.5 times larger) would mean around 198-302. The overall rate ~3000. Which is what 3-4 times lower than the US murder rate.
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Old May 7 2013, 03:48 PM   #159
Tora Ziyal
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Re: 5 year old given rifle as gift, kills 2 year old sister

gturner wrote: View Post
There are many different reasons for gun control in some of the bigger northern cities. Some of it was from a culture clash where people from down South, who are extremely friendly but sometimes react to serious insults with lethal force, moved up north where people aren't as overtly friendly to strangers and like to hurl insults all day. The simplest solution was to disarm all the blacks....
Just a bit of stereotyping, don't you think? Northerners may (or may not) tend not to be as friendly as southerners, but the vast majority don't "hurl insults all day." In fact, I don't know anyone who hurls insults all day. And, yes, I grew up in the north and still visit family and friends there.
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Old May 7 2013, 04:17 PM   #160
farmkid
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Re: 5 year old given rifle as gift, kills 2 year old sister

MacLeod wrote: View Post
So are you saying hypothetically speaking if Guns where banned in the US or more highly regulated that it wouldn't reduce the risk of a "crazy" person getting hold of one?

No law passed by Parliament or Act of Congress will ever prevent a shooting incident form occuring, it can however reduce the risk of such an event occuring.

Or would you disagree with that statement?

Or how about this in a democracy the will of the majority is usually carried out.

From gallup

http://www.gallup.com/poll/160085/am...-violence.aspx

In that poll it seems the majority are in favour of some reforms to the existing gun laws.
I'm not saying it; that's what the argument from the pro-gun crowd is. To a certain extent I agree. Regarding your italicized statement, I agree with it, but the question is regarding the nature of the laws passed. Congress could pass a law that would lock up everyone one with mental health issues, and that would certainly reduce mass shootings. However, I think most will agree that the cost in terms of money and freedom is too high. Congress could also ban all guns and confiscate them all (ignoring the constitutional issues for the sake of argument), but doing so would be next to impossible and would result in massive conflicts, probably many more deaths than many years of mass shootings, and also high cost in money and freedom. So sure, laws could be passed that would reduce them, but the ones that would obviously work aren't workable. That leaves us with things such as banning high-capacity magazines and assault weapons and such. Such things sound effective to people without experience with guns. Gun owners and shooters, on the other hand, see such things as ineffective and only restrictive to law-abiding citizens. Anyone who shoots knows that with a little practice it takes only a few seconds (some can do it is less than one second with some guns) to change magazines, so there is little to no difference between having three 10-round magazines or one 30-round magazine. They also realize that the term "assault weapon" is meaningless regarding actual function of a weapon. For example, the latest assault weapon ban listed many makes and models of guns that were banned or permitted. The Ruger Mini-14 (functionally equivalent to an AR-15) with a wood stock was exempted, but with a folding stock was banned. There is no functional difference between the two. A particular model of .22 was banned because it was dressed up to look like a military weapon. It's still a .22 and not useful for hunting anything bigger than a squirrel or a tin can and rarely deadly, but it looks scary so it was banned. The problem gun owners have is that such laws are usually, if not always, drawn up by people who know nothing about guns and they end up being laws that will do nothing to solve the problem but will only cause problems for law-abiding citizens.

The Gallup poll was interesting, but not surprising. Frankly, I'm baffled that the background check issue didn't pass. As you point out, pretty much everyone is in favor of it, including most gun owners. It only makes sense. If you look at the poll, you'll see that the things with the most support are the things that gun owners support as solutions to the problem--attacking it from a mental health perspective and measures aimed at keeping guns out of the hands of people who shouldn't have them without restricting the majority of people and increasing security and improving response. Banning things has the lowest support of anything on the list.
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Old May 7 2013, 04:19 PM   #161
1001001
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Re: 5 year old given rifle as gift, kills 2 year old sister

Tora Ziyal wrote: View Post
gturner wrote: View Post
There are many different reasons for gun control in some of the bigger northern cities. Some of it was from a culture clash where people from down South, who are extremely friendly but sometimes react to serious insults with lethal force, moved up north where people aren't as overtly friendly to strangers and like to hurl insults all day. The simplest solution was to disarm all the blacks....
Just a bit of stereotyping, don't you think? Northerners may (or may not) tend not to be as friendly as southerners, but the vast majority don't "hurl insults all day." In fact, I don't know anyone who hurls insults all day. And, yes, I grew up in the north and still visit family and friends there.
I grew up in Los Angeles.

We don't care enough to hurl insults all day.

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Old May 7 2013, 04:38 PM   #162
gturner
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Re: 5 year old given rifle as gift, kills 2 year old sister

^ That sounds about right. Fortunately murder rates aren't quite as subject to differences in reporting standards and definitions as most other aspects of crime (a dead body gets more attention than a missing purse or a drunken complaint) but there are still differences enough to complicate comparisons. And of course the numbers bounce all over the place from year to year.

The US has seen its murder rate drop in half after almost all the states approved concealed carry and the number of guns per capita went way up, so obviously guns aren't the driving factor in homicide. In all of Russia there are fewer privately owned rifles and pistols than just my own city, yet their murder rate is about four times higher than the US. Europe's murder rate is overall about two to four times lower, but European firearm laws vary more than the US states' laws do. Some European countries allow teenage open carry, some ban guns almost entirely. They just don't seem to kill each other as much. US states show similar patterns. Some states are highly restrictive and have a low murder rate, and some allow pretty much anything and have a low murder rate. Some are highly restrictive and high very high murder rates, and some have high murder rates while not restricting guns hardly at all.

The determining factor seems to have something to do with the number of killers and potential victims roaming the streets, the number of reasons for violent disputes, the number of violent gangs and drug cartels, and cultural proclivity toward violence.

The proclivity toward violence is probably the main factor. Italy used to have fatal stabbings daily, and Italian women didn't want to date a man who wasn't good in a knife fight. The stabbings would occur between diners in cafes, in bars, between old men playing checkers. Knife control wouldn't have solved the problem because they also killed each other with barstools, lamps, and broken bottles. They just liked to fight to the death at the drop of a hat as a matter of honor. They quit doing that, as did the rest of Europe.

Americans still have subcultures that fight like that, as does most of Central and South America and large parts of the Caribbean, along with Africa. If you really wanted to reduce the murder rate, banning alcohol makes a lot more sense, but as we know, that just gives people another reason to form criminal gangs and kill each other.
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Old May 7 2013, 05:00 PM   #163
farmkid
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Re: 5 year old given rifle as gift, kills 2 year old sister

gturner wrote: View Post
The US has seen its murder rate drop in half after almost all the states approved concealed carry and the number of guns per capita went way up, so obviously guns aren't the driving factor in homicide. In all of Russia there are fewer privately owned rifles and pistols than just my own city, yet their murder rate is about four times higher than the US. Europe's murder rate is overall about two to four times lower, but European firearm laws vary more than the US states' laws do. Some European countries allow teenage open carry, some ban guns almost entirely. They just don't seem to kill each other as much. US states show similar patterns. Some states are highly restrictive and have a low murder rate, and some allow pretty much anything and have a low murder rate. Some are highly restrictive and high very high murder rates, and some have high murder rates while not restricting guns hardly at all.
Some time ago I ran across a review of gun control/violent crime studies. The authors looked at all of the studies they could find in the US and worldwide that tried to correlate the prevalence of guns with violence and/or murder. The studies varied widely in their conclusions, and what the authors of the paper concluded is basically what you said. There's little to no correlation between gun ownership and the prevalence of violent acts in a society.
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Old May 7 2013, 05:36 PM   #164
Stoo
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Re: 5 year old given rifle as gift, kills 2 year old sister

farmkid wrote: View Post
. Anyone who shoots knows that with a little practice it takes only a few seconds (some can do it is less than one second with some guns) to change magazines, so there is little to no difference between having three 10-round magazines or one 30-round magazine.
I'm sorta skeptical of this. I know it's fun to imagine being some sort of well-honed shooting machine slapping in one clip after another, and you can probably achieve that on the target range.

But, Mr Psycho flipping out in the middle of a room of screaming people? I'd say the more actions he has to take to kill people, the better the chance of fumbling or slipping up or something jamming.

So it won't save everyone in such a situation, but maybe a few? And that would be worth the inconvenience of not being able to have your big impressive action-movie (dakka dakka dakka) magazine.
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Old May 7 2013, 06:04 PM   #165
farmkid
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Re: 5 year old given rifle as gift, kills 2 year old sister

^A few minutes on Youtube will show you how fast someone can change magazines. Of course a novice won't be so fast, but I did say it took practice. Anyone who has practiced with a gun enough to actually hit their target and kill people in a mass shooting situation will be able to change magazines pretty quickly.
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