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Go Back   The Trek BBS > Star Trek Movies > Star Trek Movies I-X

Star Trek Movies I-X Discuss the first ten big screen outings in this forum!

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Old May 1 2013, 06:54 PM   #286
horatio83
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Re: Did Picard make the right decision with the Son'a/Baku

There are no Coruscants in the Federation and the notion of an exploding populations that needs space is not supported by the real world experience of stagnating populations in rich countries. On Earth there was furthermore a nasty nuclear war and I doubt that the population size is larger than today. It is probably smaller.
In short, colonists do not go the border because of economic reasons. They like the challenge.
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Old May 1 2013, 07:13 PM   #287
Hartzilla2007
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Re: Did Picard make the right decision with the Son'a/Baku

horatio83 wrote: View Post
On Earth there was furthermore a nasty nuclear war and I doubt that the population size is larger than today. It is probably smaller.
It has a population in the billions by First Contact.

And the casualties from World War III were in the 100 millions so it didn't kill the majority of the population.
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Old May 1 2013, 07:26 PM   #288
horatio83
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Re: Did Picard make the right decision with the Son'a/Baku

My mistake. I nonetheless doubt that Trek's fictional Earth made this enormous progress in the second half of the 21st century while its population exploded like it does nowadays.
Population growth, resource shortages and climate change are the main, interconnected problems for our species in this century.

Lets shortly delve into demographics. People propagate massively mainly for economic reasons, children can work on the fields and care for you when you are old. The first cause vanishes once a country industrializes and the ration of people employed in the primary sectors decreases sharply. The second vanishes when there is a public pension system or when lifespans expand and people privately save for old age.
In short, if everybody is moderately well off on United Earth the population should stagnate or decline.

Then again Trek has indeed implied, mainly in TOS, that humankind spreads for economic reasons. The wheat in Trouble with Tribbles, miners and so on. This became irrelevant in the 24th century due to replicators and it was never implied that there are land shortages (like when the Europeans settled the Americas). As you pointed out, there are no Starfleet ships designed for the transport of a large number of people.
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Old May 4 2013, 12:28 AM   #289
OneBuckFilms
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Re: Did Picard make the right decision with the Son'a/Baku

Hartzilla2007 wrote: View Post
horatio83 wrote: View Post
On Earth there was furthermore a nasty nuclear war and I doubt that the population size is larger than today. It is probably smaller.
It has a population in the billions by First Contact.

And the casualties from World War III were in the 100 millions so it didn't kill the majority of the population.
For the first note:

Data: Population 9 billion, all borg.

That indicates the population with the Borg in full control, in a timeline where no wars post World War III took place, beyond replaced drones. This does not affect the normal/restored timeline population.

For the World War III reference:

I think Riker said something about 100 Million dead from World War III, and there was no indication as to the pre-war total population levels.

This means we have no way to tell how devastation WW III is, or how much an increase in population took place between 2063 and the mid-late 24th Century.
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Old May 4 2013, 12:31 AM   #290
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Re: Did Picard make the right decision with the Son'a/Baku

One aspect's of Earth's improvement post WW III is a factor not seen prior: Influence on technology, medicine, philosophy etc. by the Vulcans.

Even holding back on key knowledge and technology (ala Enterprise), Vulcan interactions with Earth would likely play a large part in the eradication of hunger and war on Eaerth within 50 years (per Deana Troi).
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Old May 6 2013, 04:31 AM   #291
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Re: Did Picard make the right decision with the Son'a/Baku

OneBuckFilms wrote: View Post
I think Riker said something about 100 Million dead from World War III
600 million.
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Old May 7 2013, 02:43 AM   #292
Hartzilla2007
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Re: Did Picard make the right decision with the Son'a/Baku

OneBuckFilms wrote: View Post
Hartzilla2007 wrote: View Post
horatio83 wrote: View Post
On Earth there was furthermore a nasty nuclear war and I doubt that the population size is larger than today. It is probably smaller.
It has a population in the billions by First Contact.

And the casualties from World War III were in the 100 millions so it didn't kill the majority of the population.
For the first note:

Data: Population 9 billion, all borg.

That indicates the population with the Borg in full control, in a timeline where no wars post World War III took place, beyond replaced drones. This does not affect the normal/restored timeline population.
Funny, the movie seemed to imply there weren't really any wars after World War III in the regular timeline.

Also 9 billion is still in the billions.

And Riker didn't seem suprised at the 9 billion population count, whereas he was suprised about them being Borg. so I tend to think Earth had a high population.
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Old May 7 2013, 03:04 AM   #293
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Re: Did Picard make the right decision with the Son'a/Baku

OneBuckFilms wrote: View Post
One aspect's of Earth's improvement post WW III is a factor not seen prior: Influence on technology, medicine, philosophy etc. by the Vulcans.

Even holding back on key knowledge and technology (ala Enterprise), Vulcan interactions with Earth would likely play a large part in the eradication of hunger and war on Eaerth within 50 years (per Deana Troi).
Vulcans pulled Earth out of the shitter
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Old May 7 2013, 01:38 PM   #294
horatio83
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Re: Did Picard make the right decision with the Son'a/Baku

As OneBuck indicated, the held back warp technology while the planet was united so it is doubtful that they helped much with ending hunger or war.
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Old May 9 2013, 05:12 PM   #295
cheesepuff316
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Re: Did Picard make the right decision with the Son'a/Baku

I think they could do both - save the Ba'ku and get the Meds
Surely the Ba'ku don't take up the entire planet... therefore, Starfleet could establish a Medical facility on the other side of the planet so that sick people could stay for a month or two to regenerate??
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Old May 9 2013, 05:32 PM   #296
Hartzilla2007
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Re: Did Picard make the right decision with the Son'a/Baku

cheesepuff316 wrote: View Post
I think they could do both - save the Ba'ku and get the Meds
Surely the Ba'ku don't take up the entire planet... therefore, Starfleet could establish a Medical facility on the other side of the planet so that sick people could stay for a month or two to regenerate??
But, see that involves the Federation actually talking to the natives and actually questioning the assumption that they give a f@#k about what people on the other side of the planet do and not forgetting that federation medical technology could probably keep the Son'a alive long enough for the rings to affect them.
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Old May 9 2013, 07:11 PM   #297
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Re: Did Picard make the right decision with the Son'a/Baku

Hartzilla2007 wrote: View Post
cheesepuff316 wrote: View Post
I think they could do both - save the Ba'ku and get the Meds
Surely the Ba'ku don't take up the entire planet... therefore, Starfleet could establish a Medical facility on the other side of the planet so that sick people could stay for a month or two to regenerate??
But, see that involves the Federation actually talking to the natives and actually questioning the assumption that they give a f@#k about what people on the other side of the planet do and not forgetting that federation medical technology could probably keep the Son'a alive long enough for the rings to affect them.

except that the movie explicitly contradicted that with regards to the Son'a.
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Old May 10 2013, 11:17 AM   #298
T'Girl
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Re: Did Picard make the right decision with the Son'a/Baku

Hartzilla2007 wrote: View Post
Funny, the movie seemed to imply there weren't really any wars after World War III in the regular timeline.
Not exactly, Deanna said that war (among other thing) were going to be gone in a half century. Plus one of Captain Archer's stories involved a ancestor fighting a ground war in Africa likely in the late 21st or early 22nd century (the story about the school being in the line of fire).

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Old July 1 2013, 10:03 PM   #299
Charles Phipps
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Re: Did Picard make the right decision with the Son'a/Baku

I used to think he made a mistake but it occurs to me this is a slippery-slope as while I might be okay with the Federation stealing medicine, I'm not okay with them stealing dilithium--which would be something they could justify with the exact same set of rules.

How much different is the Baku from Avatar?

For me, I think the Federation should probably just stick with analyzing the magic cloud--and maybe asking if they could use another continent as a hospital.
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Old July 2 2013, 11:14 AM   #300
Belz...
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Re: Did Picard make the right decision with the Son'a/Baku

R. Star wrote: View Post
The Baku were not a sympathetic species at all. Their level of self-entitlement is just staggering. They all but declare their immortality is more important than anyone else, including the Son'a.
I didn't get that from watching the movie. Didn't they just want to be left alone ?
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