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Enterprise The final frontier has a new beginning in this forum!

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Old May 6 2013, 12:07 AM   #31
Melakon
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Re: “In Conversation” or “Berman and Braga vs the world.”

I never took debate, I was theatre, so I'm automatically at a disadvantage.
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Old May 6 2013, 12:26 AM   #32
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Re: “In Conversation” or “Berman and Braga vs the world.”

I think that Berman & Braga and the UPN suits share major parts of the blame. UPN brought near total ignorance of the Star Trek brand and a set of demands that creatively limited the staff (particularly the "planet/alien of the week" formula). B&B didn't have the guts to stand up to the execs and tell them that Trek and the writers needed a breather; when the show got greenlit, they didn't change up the writing staff enough to keep the show from feeling stale in the first two seasons.

That said, I really have no problems with what Berman and Braga are saying. After about fifteen years of constantly being blamed for every bad decision regarding Trek, they finally get to say their piece. Whether you believe some or all of it, they're giving us more pieces of the puzzle that is the true story of how Star Trek was made and we should be thankful for that.
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Old May 6 2013, 02:32 AM   #33
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Re: “In Conversation” or “Berman and Braga vs the world.”

I do enjoy spirited discussion in our little forum. That being said...

horatio83 wrote: View Post
And then fans whine that the show isn't innovative enough while blaming Berman instead of the studio. Totally ridiculous.
horatio83 wrote: View Post
I prefer the good old days in which people produced a book or movie and did not have to constantly interact with the fans and deal with such appalling behaviour.
horatio83 wrote: View Post
Fans want to be the center of the universe but they aren't.
horatio, I think it would help if you would dial back the unflattering collective branding of "fans" as appalling, demanding whiners or whatever. There are lot of fans here, including a few Enterprise fans, who do not fit your descriptions, and this kind of labeling isn't productive. Okay? Thanks.

horatio83 wrote: View Post
Expecting that these guys should apologize for not having created something which matches your preferences is fancentric nonsense.
In my case, it's more like expectations that are not met. Happiness equals reality divided by expectations. The Trek people told me to expect a lot from Enterprise, but I still mourn all the missed opportunities. I absolutely adore the show, though.

I don't think any professional artist sets out to do bad work, to put part of their souls out there to be ridiculed. I think they try to do their best with whatever restrictions they have been put under. (Ever seen The Goodbye Girl? That is a great example.) And I have always found it a lot easier to see the flaws in other people's work than see it (much less own up to it) in my own.

horatio83 wrote: View Post
Talking about debate classes, I wonder how they look like on Tellar Prime.
One of my favorite scenes on the show is the opening of "Babel One" with Hoshi teaching Archer how to insult like a Tellarite.

Melakon wrote: View Post
Hey, I have one of these. Collector's item now, or just a really big coaster?
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Old May 6 2013, 02:56 AM   #34
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Re: “In Conversation” or “Berman and Braga vs the world.”

I sort of wish I still had mine, but I haven't had a phonograph since about 1994. It lasted about 25 years though, through over a dozen moves.
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Old May 6 2013, 09:37 PM   #35
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Re: “In Conversation” or “Berman and Braga vs the world.”

I haven't seen the documentary but, simply, Berman and Braga were burnt out and it showed during the Enterprise run. When Paramount moved on from the 24th century they should've moved on from these two guys as well. They were too ingrained with a 24th century mindset. In my opinion.
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Old May 6 2013, 10:29 PM   #36
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Re: “In Conversation” or “Berman and Braga vs the world.”

Melakon wrote: View Post
I sort of wish I still had mine, but I haven't had a phonograph since about 1994. It lasted about 25 years though, through over a dozen moves.
FYI: "Inside Star Trek" is on a bonus CD as part of the Star Trek: The Motion Picture - 20th Anniversary Collector's Edition soundtrack release from 1999.

Last edited by SpHeRe31459; May 6 2013 at 11:31 PM. Reason: clarified that it's the soundtrack CD
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Old May 6 2013, 11:03 PM   #37
Melakon
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Re: “In Conversation” or “Berman and Braga vs the world.”

I don't have any of the original films anymore, thanks to a former friend who turned out to be a thief and stole most of my prerecorded VHS tapes (more than 400 titles). Slowly trying to rebuild the library on DVD.
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Old May 6 2013, 11:30 PM   #38
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Re: “In Conversation” or “Berman and Braga vs the world.”

Melakon wrote: View Post
I don't have any of the original films anymore, thanks to a former friend who turned out to be a thief and stole most of my prerecorded VHS tapes (more than 400 titles). Slowly trying to rebuild the library on DVD.
Not sure what this comment is in reference to, but I'm referring to the soundtrack on CD from 1999.

TMP wasn't released on DVD until 2001 in the form of the Director's Edition.
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Old May 7 2013, 12:25 AM   #39
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Re: “In Conversation” or “Berman and Braga vs the world.”

Scotty wrote: View Post
Enterprise failed to captivate the fans like TNG, DS9 and even VOY managed to do. And it's all because of the quality of the writing.
You must not have watched TNG, DS9, or VOY when they were first run. TNG honestly (and rightfully) got blasted for it's TERRIBLE first two seasons; and actually didn't start receiving some positive mentions until "Yesterday's Enterprise" in Season 3.

Similarly, I suppose you forgot the "DS9 is too bland/dark/npt GR's 'vision'..." cries from Star Trek fans during its first two seasons too.

the simple fact is - there isn't a post TOS/TAS Star trek series that didn't have god-awful writing during its first two Seasons, and actually, at least ENT has a couple really decent episodes from its first coupl,e of seasons ("Silent Enemy"; "The Andorian Incident" "Fallen Hero"; "Dear Doctor" to name a few from S1 and "Minefield"; "The Catwalk"; "Cease Fire"; "Future Tense"; "First Flight"; and "The Expanse" from S2).

Season 3 of ENT overall was on par bwith the best of TNG S3 and (IMO) S4 was some of the best Star Trek stories done since TOS S1.

Now, I'm not disagree that ENT failed to capture/maintain enough of an audience, but honestly, and overall, it wasn't the writing or the production values -- it was most likely due to the fact that in 2001 - there had been (counting TAS) - 25 full TV seasons of Star Trek material produced to date; and 9 full length feature films feature Star Trek characters; an while I know this will come as a big surprise to hard core Star Trek fans; but after a while the general TV viewing audience says "enough" to a given set up. That's pretty much what happened by the time ENT hit the air waves; and I think it would have happened to whatever version of Star Trek (in the then 35 year old Star Trek 'Main' Universe) Paramount tried to put on TV.

Overall, I say, episode for episode, the writing on ENT was above what we got from TNG and about on par with what DS9 was doing for it's first 4 seasons.
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Old May 7 2013, 03:08 AM   #40
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Re: “In Conversation” or “Berman and Braga vs the world.”

SpHeRe31459 wrote: View Post
Melakon wrote: View Post
. . .blah bla-blah blah. . .
Not sure what this comment is in reference to, but I'm referring to the soundtrack on CD from 1999.

TMP wasn't released on DVD until 2001 in the form of the Director's Edition.
Apparently I misunderstood your original comment (bad eyesight). I didn't own any audio cd's in 1999, and didn't get into dvd until about 3 years ago.
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Old May 7 2013, 04:57 AM   #41
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Re: “In Conversation” or “Berman and Braga vs the world.”

People who get to claim writer's privilege are people who push boundaries and have original ideas. Not Rick Berman and Brannon Braga.

Yes, seasons 3 and 4 are probably the best non-TOS-TNG-DS9 Trek out there. But how can you give Berman and Braga credit for that, when the quality of the show skyrocketed right when a new fresh writer came in, and not blame them for the dreck of the first two seasons?
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Old May 7 2013, 07:01 AM   #42
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Re: “In Conversation” or “Berman and Braga vs the world.”

Danger Ace wrote: View Post
horatio83 wrote: View Post
They have actually frequently said that ENT wasn't perfect.
That is hardly a real or sincere or even a mea culpa of any kind. First and foremost, nothing is perfect. A generalized statement that Enterprise was flawed is a statement of fact not a reflective acknowledgement of culpability.
"Culpability?"

Dude, they made a TV show you didn't like. It's not like they killed Princess Diana or something.
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Old May 7 2013, 08:01 AM   #43
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Re: “In Conversation” or “Berman and Braga vs the world.”

Noname Given wrote: View Post
You must not have watched TNG, DS9, or VOY when they were first run. TNG honestly (and rightfully) got blasted for it's TERRIBLE first two seasons; and actually didn't start receiving some positive mentions until "Yesterday's Enterprise" in Season 3. Similarly, I suppose you forgot the "DS9 is too bland/dark/npt GR's 'vision'..." cries from Star Trek fans during its first two seasons too.
Sure people were critical, but they kept watching and were rewarded for their patience.

the simple fact is - there isn't a post TOS/TAS Star trek series that didn't have god-awful writing during its first two Seasons, and actually, at least ENT has a couple really decent episodes from its first coupl,e of seasons ("Silent Enemy"; "The Andorian Incident" "Fallen Hero"; "Dear Doctor" to name a few from S1 and "Minefield"; "The Catwalk"; "Cease Fire"; "Future Tense"; "First Flight"; and "The Expanse" from S2).
The Catwalk? Seriously? The episodes you name are just episodes that weren't as mindnumbingly dull as the rest of Enterprise's episodes. There are no episodes in Enterprise's entire run that can match the sheer brilliance of early season episodes like "Measure of a Man", "Q Who", "Duet", "The Jem'Hadar" or even"Jetrel" or "Tuvix".

Season 3 of ENT overall was on par bwith the best of TNG S3 and (IMO) S4 was some of the best Star Trek stories done since TOS S1.
It's clear you're a huge fan of the show Noname, and in a way I envy you. But seriously, Enterprise never even came close to the brilliance of seasons 3 and 4 of TNG or DS9's seasons 5 and 6. Enterprise's Xindi arc was breath of fresh air and at the time I really loved that season. But in hindsight, the premise was a very weird choice for a prequel series and the writers actually abandoned the initial premise of the show for an entire season. It feels very out of place. Season 4 was hardcore Trek in the sense that every episodes references established cannon or tried to expand upon it. It was the first time Enterprise had a point to make. But still, the stories themselves weren't exciting enough. The pacing was also very slow because of the unnecessary spreading out of a story over 2 or 3 episodes.

I'll tell you why I think Enterprise never worked and it's evident from the interviews on the Blu Rays. Berman and Braga were never enthusiastic about the show. Berman is just a studio exec who was put on a job in the 80s and continued to do that job for 18 years. He had no affinity with Trek or its fans. It was just a tv show for him, a job. Berman talks about how "the network approached them to do another show" and that "the feeling was we should do something different" and how " it would be a good idea that it was set in an earlier time". Never do you hear: "we got this great idea for a show and we pitched it to the network" or "we loved the idea of setting it in a time before Kirk so we could show (the fans) what the early days of Starfleet and the Federation looked like". Instead we get some casual remarks about people wearing baseball caps and jeans and eating in Chinatown. A good trek writer should have some kind of enthusiasm or even reverence for the source material or the established cannon. I think during season 4 the writers room did have that. But not during seasons 1 - 3. If the writers and producers aren't excited about the show they are producing, then fans like me won't be either.
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Last edited by Scotty; May 7 2013 at 03:40 PM.
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Old May 7 2013, 01:35 PM   #44
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Re: “In Conversation” or “Berman and Braga vs the world.”

JirinPanthosa wrote: View Post
... people who push boundaries and have original ideas ...
Like wanting to set the first season on Earth?
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Old May 7 2013, 08:00 PM   #45
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Re: “In Conversation” or “Berman and Braga vs the world.”

horatio83 wrote: View Post
JirinPanthosa wrote: View Post
... people who push boundaries and have original ideas ...
Like wanting to set the first season on Earth?
You know, I'm certainly no apologist for the Beebs, lord knows I'v done my share of bashing, but please tell me what is not original and not boundary pushing about starting a Trek series on Earth? This would have been revolutionary for a Trek series and honestly, I have wanted for years to see what this would have looked like. It may have turned out terribly, it's Rick and Brannon circa 2001 afterall, but it would surely have been original.

If I misunderstood your post, let me know.
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