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Go Back   The Trek BBS > Star Trek TV Series > Star Trek - Original Series

Star Trek - Original Series The one that started it all...

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Old May 7 2013, 12:53 AM   #136
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Re: The Roddenberry Reputation

That would be plausible, except the Solow/Justman book, which (mostly) tries to debunk the Roddenberry mythology, also asserts that it was unheard of for a network to turn down one pilot but order a second one.

I believe the difference between Star Trek and these other shows being discussed (and correct me if I am wrong) is that the other shows were bought after the first pilot, and then re-tooled for the series proper. Star Trek underwent the same process (the additions of McCoy, Uhura, and Rand; the change of job for Sulu; new costumes; etc.), but only after the second pilot was accepted.
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Old May 7 2013, 02:02 AM   #137
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Re: The Roddenberry Reputation

The a pilot for what would become Dick Van Dyke Show was originally called Head of the Family and starred Carl Reiner as "Rob Petrie". It failed to get picked up.
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Old May 7 2013, 02:51 AM   #138
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Re: The Roddenberry Reputation

The network didn't finance the first "Head of the Family" pilot. It was made on spec and the William Morris agency attempted to sell it.

That was a different situation than NBC which did finance both Trek pilots.
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Old May 7 2013, 03:06 AM   #139
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Re: The Roddenberry Reputation

JoeD80 wrote: View Post
The network didn't finance the first "Head of the Family" pilot. It was made on spec and the William Morris agency attempted to sell it.

That was a different situation than NBC which did finance both Trek pilots.
Didn't say they did. Just that one version of the show didn't sell and one did.
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Old May 7 2013, 07:20 PM   #140
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Re: The Roddenberry Reputation

The point is it's not the same situation as having a second pilot ordered after the first pilot was rejected by the very same people, which was the context of the conversation above.
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Old May 8 2013, 03:15 AM   #141
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Re: The Roddenberry Reputation

JoeD80 wrote: View Post
The point is it's not the same situation as having a second pilot ordered after the first pilot was rejected by the very same people, which was the context of the conversation above.
I believe the show was "rejected" by CBS, the same network which later approved the Dick Van Dyke version. The original version was shown in 1961 as part of an anthology series called The Comedy Spot. Happy Days followed a similar path. It's original pilot was shown as part of Love American Style.

imdb ( yeah I know) has this write up:

The pilot tanked, but the network liked the concept, so it was rewritten and recast with Dick Van Dyke playing the lead role, Mary Tyler Moore as his wife and Reiner as the bullying series star Alan Brady.
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Old May 9 2013, 02:09 AM   #142
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Re: The Roddenberry Reputation

Harvey wrote: View Post
To be exact, "The Cage" cost $615,781.56.00.

"Where No Man Has Gone Before" cost $354,974.00.

The decrease in cost can probably be credited to the second pilot being shorter (50 min. vs. 78 min.), start-up costs not incurred by the second pilot (sets, costumes, props, research/development, etc.), and the crew having the experience of the first pilot under their belt.
Except that The Cage is 63 1/2 minutes, not 78, and the original "pilot" cut of WNM is 52 1/2 minutes, so it's only 11 minutes shorter.
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Old May 9 2013, 05:42 AM   #143
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Re: The Roddenberry Reputation

Inside Star Trek repeatedly lists the 78 minute running time (for an intended 90 minute time slot), although it isn't that long on home video. I wonder if that is an inaccurate report of the running time or the result of editing on the current version?

Even if the book gets it wrong, 11 minutes isn't insignificant on a television shooting schedule. Keep in mind that the first pilot took roughly 16 days to shoot; the second pilot took roughly 8 (although Solow and Justman say 9, IIRC).
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Old May 9 2013, 07:30 PM   #144
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Re: The Roddenberry Reputation

I'm not sure what's so confusing about the WNM costing more than The Cage.

When The Cage was made, literally everything had to be built from scratch. When WNM was filmed, 90% of the sets were reused, costumes were reused, the model of the Enterprise was reused, effects shots were reused, etc. They had a ton of savings in being able to use elements that were created for The Cage. That's the reason why the episode costs so much less.
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Old May 9 2013, 08:28 PM   #145
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Re: The Roddenberry Reputation

Who said it was confusing? Start-up costs obviously were spent on the first pilot that didn't need to be spent on the second; I indicated as much. They're not the only factor, though.
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Old May 9 2013, 09:25 PM   #146
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Re: The Roddenberry Reputation

trevanian wrote: View Post

My issue has always been that Picard seems very Captain-as-King in 'tude, which is very retro and not enlightened 24thcentury at all. Whereas Kirk is not afraid of showing his emotions a lot of the time, so while he has his great quiet powerful moments (Balance of Terror, CHARLIE X), most remember stuff like RISK IS OUR BUSINESS from RtT or, more painfully, SHE'S HUMAN! from Requiem.)

Kirk and Sisko (and Janeway even when I was able to watch VOYAGER) seemed military commander-like, whereas Picard vacillated between King and diplomat. The others could incorporate those aspects while still seeming to be in the service, but Picard ... well, suffice to say I'm not a fan.
Po-tay-to, po-ta-to. Both men are different commanders, jut like both are different men. This doesn't mean that Picard has no emotions or won't smile or express his feelings, he just does it in a different way. At least Picard cried his eyes out when it counted ('Sarek' and Star Trek: Generations, ). Kirk (or rather, his savage half) only shows real emotion when confronted.

Q WHO and TAPESTRY and the end of ALL GOOD THINGS show promise at what COULD have been with Picard, but I have always seen him as a missed opportunity. (also kind of wished they HAD let Q serve as their Exec for awhile, because 1st season Riker was such a damned tourist!)
Having an arrogant God-being serve as a member of the crew of a starship would have been a cheat, especially since said being (Q) had a lot to learn than he thought Picard did (as shown in the latter two episodes of Voyager he was on.) As for Janeway, she's the first female captain ever on a Star Trek show; having her act like a typical female in the emotional department would have been disastrous, and would have gotten a ton of nasty mail from a lot of female Trek fans, telling the producers that she should toughen up.
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Old May 10 2013, 03:29 AM   #147
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Re: The Roddenberry Reputation

[QUOTE=Shaka Zulu;8064526]
trevanian wrote: View Post

At least Picard cried his eyes out when it counted ('Sarek' and Star Trek: Generations, ). Kirk (or rather, his savage half) only shows real emotion when confronted.
He cried in other episodes (ex. "Family"). I guess he was fond of tears.

Kirk: He was shaking/shattered immediately after Edith's death, deeply depressed after Rayna's breakdown, grim and sad after Aurelan's death, and sad/thoughtful after Gary Mitchell's death.

Did he need to stream rivers like Picard in order for it to qualify as "real emotion" when everyone does not express/react the same way?
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Old May 10 2013, 05:52 AM   #148
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Re: The Roddenberry Reputation

Shaka Zulu wrote: View Post
trevanian wrote: View Post

My issue has always been that Picard seems very Captain-as-King in 'tude, which is very retro and not enlightened 24thcentury at all. Whereas Kirk is not afraid of showing his emotions a lot of the time, so while he has his great quiet powerful moments (Balance of Terror, CHARLIE X), most remember stuff like RISK IS OUR BUSINESS from RtT or, more painfully, SHE'S HUMAN! from Requiem.)

Kirk and Sisko (and Janeway even when I was able to watch VOYAGER) seemed military commander-like, whereas Picard vacillated between King and diplomat. The others could incorporate those aspects while still seeming to be in the service, but Picard ... well, suffice to say I'm not a fan.
Po-tay-to, po-ta-to. Both men are different commanders, jut like both are different men. This doesn't mean that Picard has no emotions or won't smile or express his feelings, he just does it in a different way. At least Picard cried his eyes out when it counted ('Sarek' and Star Trek: Generations,
and I find his work in SAREK and GEN to be painful to watch and almost as lacking in credibility as his tantrum in FC. FAMILY works, barely. Even though Frakes seemed almost like an amateur in the cast 1st season, in later years his quiet effective emotional moments, like the scene aboard the BoP in the mess hall 2nd season, and especially with Data at the end of LEGACY (probably the best moment in the series for me), trump everything Stewart did on Trek. And Yeah, I'm definitely one of those guys who would have been very happy to have seen TNG with Riker as Captain 4th season.
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Old May 10 2013, 07:08 AM   #149
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Re: The Roddenberry Reputation

Picard is authoritarian. Riker is more laid back, and tough as nails when he has to be. Riker is, in a sense, Kirk. Picard's command style is more formal, though he is more relaxed when among friends and compatriots. I admire that in him, and as much as I like James T. Kirk, I'd rather serve under Picard.
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Old May 10 2013, 02:58 PM   #150
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Re: The Roddenberry Reputation

trevanian wrote: View Post
and I find his work in SAREK and GEN to be painful to watch and almost as lacking in credibility as his tantrum in FC. FAMILY works, barely. Even though Frakes seemed almost like an amateur in the cast 1st season, in later years his quiet effective emotional moments, like the scene aboard the BoP in the mess hall 2nd season, and especially with Data at the end of LEGACY (probably the best moment in the series for me), trump everything Stewart did on Trek. And Yeah, I'm definitely one of those guys who would have been very happy to have seen TNG with Riker as Captain 4th season.
I do agree that Frakes' work as Riker is woefully underrated. I think he did some fantastic stuff with the character, and is good both as an actor and a director.

That being said, I can't help but disagree with you about Patrick Stewart and the power of his performances. While I did dislike the Generations material, it wasn't due to his performance, but rather the fact that I thought it was out of place and unnecessary in the film. I thought his work in Sarek and Family, both, was extremely well done.

I'm curious, though... What did you think of his work in "Chain of Command"? I consider that Stewart's best performance of his entire Trek career.
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