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Old May 6 2013, 11:40 PM   #256
Melakon
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Re: Franz Joseph Blueprints Revisited

I never understood the fuss regarding class, how many ships like Enterprise existed, etc. But maybe that's because I considered all those articles in "Trek" and "Enterprise Incidents" as speculation, and Franz Joseph's work to be speculation as well, not some sort of pseudo-canon. Kirk tells Capt. Christopher "There are only 12 like it in the fleet." I always interpreted that as 12 ships of Enterprise's design, not that the entire fleet was just 12 ships.
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Old May 7 2013, 01:09 PM   #257
Robert Comsol
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Re: Franz Joseph Blueprints Revisited

GSchnitzer wrote: View Post
You don't think that Greg Jein thought NCC-1701 was only 83 percent built, do you? And you don't think that Matt Jefferies thought that NCC-1701 was only 83 percent built, do you?
I don't think that NCC-1701 was only 83% built, but there's no need to assume that the bars exclusively show stages of external ship construction. The 11% of NCC-1700 could simply state that the ship's hull has been assembled and other work steps are to follow next.

In the particular case of NCC-1701 we've all seen how the ship looked in "Where No Man Has Gone Before", then there had been some external reconstruction (lowering of Bridge dome, exchange of main sensor-deflector dish, new warp nacelles etc.) and some internal one, also.

Since we haven't seen all internal areas of the Enterprise by the time of "Court-Martial" the remaining 13% could have suggested yet-to-do internal reconstruction and upgrades (e.g. engineering section?)

GSchnitzer wrote: View Post
"FEATURING chart with legend: STAR SHIP STATUS. Columns lettered: Major Maintenance...Minor Maintenance...Ships Incoming...Ships Cleared."

In the end, Matt Jefferies seems to have exercised some artistic discretion. We have a "Star Ship Status" chart, but one that says "% complete"--and which shows those ships that have been "cleared" (by use of the little green bar on the 100% completed vessel). But it's clear that the intent of the chart was to show ships coming and going for maintenance, not ships being constructed?
Wow, that's a cool find. Apparently the separate bar you mentioned would state "ship cleared" (so it couldn't be the Intrepid but then again the registry is 1831 and not 1631). But other than that I'm uncertain whether you can actually match the script with the final and actual display: Ships Incoming - XX% complete (?).
To match script and display I'd believe this chart would rather look like a typical Bridge monitor, where some starships would just have a bar in one column (minor maintenance) or the one next to it (major maintenance).
While it's definitely interesting, I find the script to be somewhat inconclusive next to the actual display.

As for NCC-1700 being a ship under construction it is compatible with the Jeffries' nomenclature. While the yard definitely knows whether they are assembling a starship of the 16th, 17th or 18th design, the last two digits (or contact code in "my world") haven't been asigned, yet, thus in their place it reads "00" as a placeholder.

Bob
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Old May 7 2013, 01:31 PM   #258
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Re: Franz Joseph Blueprints Revisited

So if two ships are being constructed simultaneously (like the Olympic and the Titanic), they are both assigned "00" as a placeholder until NCC numbers are established for them? That is, there can be multiple 00s being built?

You mentioned that the construction work on 1701 might actually be "internal reconstruction and upgrades." If so, then 1700 might be undergoing similar "internal reconstruction and upgrade." If it's just having some reconstruction done, then it's not actually being built. So, it actually could have been built before 1701.

You're not really suggesting that "% Complete" actually means "% of vessel's shipbuilding complete" rather than "% of vessel's repairs complete," are you? You're just yanking our chain, right?
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Old May 7 2013, 01:39 PM   #259
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Re: Franz Joseph Blueprints Revisited

Melakon wrote: View Post
I never understood the fuss regarding class.
I'd dare to say it didn't exist in the beginning. The Making of Star Trek states on the first pages that the original draft had the Enterprise to be a member of the "Cruiser Class" (another hint that the debated Matt Jefferies' preproduction sketch is a genuine work from the 1960's) before they changed it to "Starship Class".

Roddenberry wanted to have a series palatable to international audiences and not just pigeonholed for US audiences (hence United Space Ship, hence "NCC" as a mixture of US and Soviet naval prefixes, hence alphabetic Starship sub-classifications reminiscient of the Soviet Navy and not the US Navy).

"Starship" can be translated into all languages (including the alien ones of the UFP) and therefore had no preference for a certain nation.

But apparently US script writers for Star Trek (like Gene Coon?) didn't subscribe to Gene's philosophy and suddenly we had the "Constitution Class" in the "Space Seed" script and the primary phaser schematic.
Especially considering the debate we are still having, it's not too farfetched to assume that people like Matt Jefferies and Bob Justman didn't like that idea. If there had to be, yet, another classification then it would be "Enterprise Class" for NCC-1701 and therefore "Enterprise Class" is twice mentioned in The Making of Star Trek to exactly avoid the kind of confusion that came from this "Constitution Class" reference.

In the interviews Matt Jefferies gave in the early 2000's there is no reference to either "Constitution Class" or "Enterprise Class".
That's not surprising, if he had been from the start an advocate of "Starship Class" and nothing else.

Apparently he revisited his original preproduction sketch of the TOS Enterprise and merely restated how it was supposed to be, i.e. that the Enterprise was the "first bird", the "first of the [17th design] series."
To avoid stepping on anybody's toes, courteous as he was, he left it to us to draw or ignore the conclusions from his statements, IMHO.

I'm sorry, but I find myself unable to interprete the "first bird" as anything else than the first ship of its kind.

Franz Joseph might have been an expert of the Jupiter II, Greg Jein is most definitely the expert of ADC 2238-5531, but when it comes to NCC-1701 I consider its creator the ultimate authority.

Bob
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Old May 7 2013, 01:52 PM   #260
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Re: Franz Joseph Blueprints Revisited

Stone is studying the chart and then turns to his intercom wherein he directs repairs crews (or whatever) to switch from the Intrepid to the Enterprise. Put together it supports the idea the chart refers to ships being maintainanced and/or repaired and not ships being constructed.

At the time 17 series ships might well have been considered the same as the Enterprise (this is long before the Constellation being shown onscreen). It could also be that the Republic (1371) mentioned onscreen wasn't originally intended as an Enterprise sister ship. Certainly the Valiant mentioned later in "A Taste Of Armageddon" likely mightn't have been intended as a 17 series ship given it was fifty years older. But as that list of proposed names started circulating they all might not of remembered what numbers (if any) were intended for which ships other than the Enterprise, of course. The appearance of the Constellation's 1017 is the wrench in the works that causes all the confusion. We're it not for that it would have all remained pretty straightforward.

Making the Constellation an older ship upgraded to 17 series configuration is a fair enough rationalization, but there really is no reason why the Republic has to be an upgrade as well because we never got to see that ship and at the time it was referenced it might not have been intended as a 17 series vessel. And I think Stone's chart was a cheap and creative bit of world-building to establish that Starfleet had a variety of ship classes besides the Enterprise type. The show couldn't afford to physically show other ship classes, but that chart was a clever non-verbal way to establish that other classes did exist in the TOS universe.

In all of TOS only three ship's registry numbers are seen or heard: 1701, 1371 and 1017. Two of them are definitely sister ships and one might be. The question: is 1017 an aberration or a precedent? I think that comes down to interpretation. Even if you add into the mix the sister ships we've actually seen we don't see or hear their registry numbers except, again, for 1017. And so beyond the Constellation the only ship we know are definitely sister ships are those we've actually seen. Any other names on any list are mostly conjecture if they weren't mentioned onscreen.

Now there is the question of whether there were any proposed registry numbers in script drafts that didn't make it onscreen and to which ships those numbers were intended. Still, unless those numbers were meant for a ship actually seen onscreen then there is no reason to assume they're sister ships of the Enterprise.

In my opinion FJ was closer to getting it right then Jein even if he didn't put as much speculation into it.
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Old May 7 2013, 10:24 PM   #261
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Re: Franz Joseph Blueprints Revisited

Robert Comsol wrote: View Post
The chart is specific as it only indicates starships, hence Jein's conclusion. I doubt these are all starships parked at Starbase 11 (then why bring starship captains in from the outside for Kirk's Court-Martial?), probably just starships that are being constructed and/or still require essential upgrades.
That is a worthy theory. Considering the Stardate of "Court Martial," it is possible it is still early enough to believe some of the starships are at different stages of refit--from (what audiences would describe as) pilot look to regular series look.

But what about the actual numbers? Jein's assumed NCC-1631 for the Intrepid turns out to be "1831" in HD.
Well, that's just a bust for Jein. HD resolution trumps assumption every time.
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Old May 8 2013, 11:01 AM   #262
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Re: Franz Joseph Blueprints Revisited

Warped9 wrote: View Post
Stone is studying the chart and then turns to his intercom wherein he directs repairs crews (or whatever) to switch from the Intrepid to the Enterprise. Put together it supports the idea the chart refers to ships being maintainanced and/or repaired and not ships being constructed.
I'd say that the fact, that two starship captains had to be brought to Starbase 11 for Kirk's Court-Martial, is evidence that this chart isn't referring to the repair work in orbit of Starbase 11 but is a To-Do-List for all Starships in Starfleet that are either under construction and/or still in need of upgrades.

Depending how much weight you concede to TOS-R the chart is definitely not referring to the repair work in orbit. NCC-1631 (Intrepid) is in orbit for repairs, but doesn't show up on the list.

Intrepid may be the only other Starship in orbit and Stone's evaluation of the chart (revealing that Enterprise isn't "complete" in contrast to Intrepid which is "complete" and therefore is no longer on this chart) may have led to the decision to give the Enterprise priority.

Warped9 wrote: View Post
In my opinion FJ was closer to getting it right then Jein even if he didn't put as much speculation into it.
I concur. But because of the popular Star Trek Concordance and eventually Okuda's Encyclopedia which both favored Jein's conclusion, we now have with TOS-R ships beginning with a "16" that are identical in outer appearance to those with a prefix of "17".

One more thing:

I do believe that the notion, that Matt Jefferies debated preproduction sketch is not from the 1960's, comes from his suggestion on that sketch that an upgrade or modernization of the ship would merit it an "A"ppendix.

Obviously, the Enterprise was upgraded / modernized between the pilots and the regular series and possibly Jefferies wanted to have the "A" added, but Roddenberry said no and demanded those saucer pencil gridlines.

For the Phase II project, Jefferies simply revisited his idea (definitely now an upgrade or modernization) but - again - TPTB said "no".

Finally, his original idea was used but in a different context when the Enterprise replacement made it onto the screen in ST IV, where most of us became aware of the issue for the very first time (although he had already proposed it years earlier!)

Bob
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Old May 8 2013, 12:45 PM   #263
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Re: Franz Joseph Blueprints Revisited

Considering how many things they changed for changes sake I don't give TOS-R credit for anything.
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Old May 8 2013, 12:49 PM   #264
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Re: Franz Joseph Blueprints Revisited

Robert Comsol wrote: View Post

I'd say that the fact, that two starship captains had to be brought to Starbase 11 for Kirk's Court-Martial...
And a Space Command Representative.
KIRK: Captain's Log, Stardate 2948.9. The officers who will comprise my court-martial board are proceeding to Starbase Eleven. Meanwhile, repairs on the Enterprise are almost complete.
...
STONE: This court is now in session. I have appointed as members of this court Space Command Representative Lindstrom, Starship Captains Krasnovsky and Chandra.
Kirk's "proceeding to Starbase Eleven" could mean they are being departing their orbiting ships around Starbase Eleven or that they have to be flown in from another place.

However it doesn't indicate why Captains from other ships at Starbase Eleven could not be used in the board. They might simply have been excluded out due to:
1. Lack of seniority
2. or conflict of interest
3. or none of the ships at the starbase are "Starship" types and thus no available "Starship" Captains.

Also Kirk mentions his ship being repaired and since 1701 was listed on the status chart it would seem to include ships under repair rather than being upgraded or under construction, IMHO.

Robert Comsol wrote:
beginning with a "16" that are identical in outer appearance to those with a prefix of "17".
What of the Constellation, beginning with a "10" that is almost identical in outer appearance to those with a prefix of "17"? Then again, how do we know that all ships 17xx look like the Enterprise?
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Old May 8 2013, 01:20 PM   #265
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Re: Franz Joseph Blueprints Revisited

Robert Comsol wrote: View Post

I'd say that the fact, that two starship captains had to be brought to Starbase 11 for Kirk's Court-Martial, is evidence that this chart isn't referring to the repair work in orbit of Starbase 11 but is a To-Do-List for all Starships in Starfleet that are either under construction and/or still in need of upgrades.
Well, Krasnovsky, Chandra, and Lindstrom are actually already at Starbase 11. They are in the "Starbase M-11 Officer's Club" at the very beginning of Act One when Kirk and McCoy come in and get the cold shoulder from some other officers. This is even before Kirk and Stone have their hearing at which Kirk decides to draw a General Court Martial. I think we need to believe our eyes instead of what someone says.

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Old May 8 2013, 02:12 PM   #266
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Re: Franz Joseph Blueprints Revisited

Although there are several ships shown in TOS that resemble NCC-1701, it doesn't necessarily mean they have the same internal configuration (the Lexington's command chair for example). Class designations may refer to onboard equipment.
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Old May 8 2013, 03:20 PM   #267
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Re: Franz Joseph Blueprints Revisited

Just to drop this here - there are examples of ships in recent times that are based on the same hull and engineering design, but are given different class names due to different equipment and missions:

Spruance class Destroyers:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spruance-class_destroyer

Kidd class Guided Missile Destroyers:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kidd-class_destroyer

Ticonderoga class Guided Missile Cruisers:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ticonderoga-class_cruiser

All are built on the same hull and have the same basic engines (LM2500 Gas Turbines) along with many other features. They are not used for the exact same missions and equipped with a different mix of sensors, control systems, weapons etc...
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Old May 8 2013, 05:08 PM   #268
Robert Comsol
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Re: Franz Joseph Blueprints Revisited

GSchnitzer wrote: View Post
Well, Krasnovsky, Chandra, and Lindstrom are actually already at Starbase 11. ... . I think we need to believe our eyes instead of what someone says.

That's what I get for making that discovery in the "Court-Martial" thread. (and sorry, you forgot to circle the court clerk who is showing us his back).

But I believe I already mentioned there that the editing of the entire episode is somewhat odd (Kirk runs out of the club and doesn't even look at Areel Shaw, looks like it had been intended for a later scene after she told him she'd be persecutor).

Of course you can either take this scene literal or chalk it off as a production necessity to have many actors in the club including the ones that were not supposed to be there, yet (and seriously, I hadn't noticed their presence in 30 years until the "Court-Martial" thread came up).

Bob
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Old May 8 2013, 05:32 PM   #269
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Re: Franz Joseph Blueprints Revisited

blssdwlf wrote: View Post
However it doesn't indicate why Captains from other ships at Starbase Eleven could not be used in the board. They might simply have been excluded out due to:
1. Lack of seniority
2. or conflict of interest
3. or none of the ships at the starbase are "Starship" types and thus no available "Starship" Captains.

Also Kirk mentions his ship being repaired and since 1701 was listed on the status chart it would seem to include ships under repair rather than being upgraded or under construction, IMHO.
It's a "Star Ship Status" display and obviously the chart exclusively shows "Starships".
  • if you believe it shows the repair work in orbit, there should be other starship captains at Starbase 11, waiting for repairs to be finished just as Kirk. A Vulcan starship captain might be excused for not wanting to participate in a trial against a human captain, but I can't imagine why other human starship captains should have an excuse if it's actually a duty they (have to) perform.
  • if you believe it shows the repair work in orbit, isn't it a little strange that the Enterprise just arrived, but the repair job is already 83% complete and still Stone feels compelled to give the order to halt repair on the Intrepid on behalf of Enterprise. ?
blssdwlf wrote: View Post
What of the Constellation, beginning with a "10" that is almost identical in outer appearance to those with a prefix of "17"?
Just like the Eagle it is my firm belief that the Constellation is a Starship of the 17th (or 16th) design but its registry number honors the achievements of a previous Starfleet vessel of an (unseen) 10th design.

blssdwlf wrote: View Post
Then again, how do we know that all ships 17xx look like the Enterprise?
Because the father of the Enterprise illustrated and said so, and because no vessel with a 17XX has ever been shown that looks differently.

Bob
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Old May 8 2013, 07:33 PM   #270
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Re: Franz Joseph Blueprints Revisited

Am I the only person here that thinks more time, effort and thought has gone into this discussion than ever went into thinking about the class of the Starship Enterprise during the entire run of TOS?
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