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Old May 6 2013, 10:11 PM   #136
gturner
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Location: Kentucky
Re: 5 year old given rifle as gift, kills 2 year old sister

^ Gee, you compared firearm homicide rates instead of homicide rates. If you do that then Russia seems like one of the safest countries on Earth, even though their homicide rates dwarfs America's, and by that sleight of hand measure the Rwandan genocide killed about three people.
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Old May 6 2013, 10:16 PM   #137
MacLeod
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Re: 5 year old given rifle as gift, kills 2 year old sister

^The next argument iguana, will be that the UK has a higher violent crime rate than the US. But crimes can be recorded differently from country to country, I think in the UK any crime commited agaisnt a person is classed a sa violent crime. I.e if you punch someone causing no serious injury maybe not even a bruise it would be classed as a violent crime.

Both having restrictive and less restrictive gun control have there pros and cons. It's a trade off yes you might suffer a rise in violent crime, but would that be compensated for by a fall in the homicide rate?

Which is more valuable a human life or the right to own a gun?
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Old May 6 2013, 10:19 PM   #138
MacLeod
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Re: 5 year old given rifle as gift, kills 2 year old sister

gturner wrote: View Post
^ Gee, you compared firearm homicide rates instead of homicide rates. If you do that then Russia seems like one of the safest countries on Earth, even though their homicide rates dwarfs America's, and by that sleight of hand measure the Rwandan genocide killed about three people.
The overall homicide rate in the US is still something like 4 times the UK.
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Old May 6 2013, 10:25 PM   #139
iguana_tonante
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Re: 5 year old given rifle as gift, kills 2 year old sister

gturner wrote: View Post
^ Gee, you compared firearm homicide rates instead of homicide rates.
I'm sorry, I thought we were talking about guns.

Now I see that actually this unfortunate kid killed his poor baby sister using a military-grade modified spork. My apologies. Terrible stuff. Just terrible.
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Old May 6 2013, 11:09 PM   #140
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Re: 5 year old given rifle as gift, kills 2 year old sister

gturner wrote: View Post
iguana_tonante wrote: View Post
And guess what? We are perfectly fine with that. Now show me that having 9 guns for every 10 Americans is needed to defend their livestock, or that 5-year old kids need their rifles to protect their pet hamsters from wolves, and you might have a point. Otherwise, you are just grasping at straws. And missing them.

What would it matter if we had ten guns per American, or a hundred? The people with lots of guns (I used to own thirty or so) commit probably 0.1% of the crime. Many of the states with ridiculously high rates of gun ownership, like Wyoming, have lower homicide rates than England or Italy. Places where they're banned, like Chicago and DC, might as well be a Yugoslavian war zone.

If high rates of gun possession caused crime, wouldn't soldiers and police make up 90% of the prison population?

I think is unfair to compare a small, mainly rural state to the whole of Britain.

Also it would seem that you are taking Wyoming's lowest figure and using it as the 'murder rate'. Because of its small population Wyoming murder rate can flutuate greatly year from year.

Number of murders in Wyoming since 2000

2000 - 12
2001 - 9
2002 - 15
2003 -14
2004 - 11
2005 - 14
2006 - 9
2007 - 16
2008 - 12
2009 - 11
2010 - 8
2011 - 18

When Wyoming's number of murders is in single digits - Yes, it is below the British murder rate. However in those years when it is 14+ the murder rate is considerable higher that Britain's.

Tasmania has a population slghtly smaller than Wyoming's (though our capital is twice the size of Wyoming's largest city) and the number of murders in year in Tasmania since 2000 has ranged from 3 to 11 so sometimes there has been a three times increase in the murder rate from year to year (we tend to average around 8 murders a year).

Going on the above figures Wyoming has averaged about 12 murders a year since 2000 which means it has an average murder rate of over 2.0 per 100,000 which is actually higher than Britain's murder rate.
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Old May 6 2013, 11:30 PM   #141
Stoo
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Re: 5 year old given rifle as gift, kills 2 year old sister

Right. Its not useful to take one empty and rural bit of America and compare it to the whole of a densely populated and highly urbanised country,

iguana_tonante wrote: View Post
Firearms Homicide Rate per 100,000 population in Wyoming: 0.9 (source)
Firearms Homicide Rate per 100,000 population in England&Wales: 0.07 (source)
Ok people keep doing this and it's slightly annoying. Isn't it *total* murder rate that matters? And our total murder rate is indeed less than america.
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Old May 6 2013, 11:56 PM   #142
iguana_tonante
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Re: 5 year old given rifle as gift, kills 2 year old sister

Stoo wrote: View Post
iguana_tonante wrote: View Post
Firearms Homicide Rate per 100,000 population in Wyoming: 0.9 (source)
Firearms Homicide Rate per 100,000 population in England&Wales: 0.07 (source)
Ok people keep doing this and it's slightly annoying. Isn't it *total* murder rate that matters? And our total murder rate is indeed less than america.
I think you misinterpreted my data.

Both your Firearms Homicide Rate and your Total Homicide Rate are lower than Wyoming's.

Total Homicide Rate per 100,000 population in Wyoming: 1.4 (source)
Total Homicide Rate per 100,000 population in England&Wales: 1.06 (source)

And as you and others have said, it is particularly egregious since England is a fucking whole country with a population of 53 millions and a density of more than 1,000 people per square mile, while Wyoming is basically a big box full of nothing (population less than 600 thousands, density just under 6 people per square mile).
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Old May 7 2013, 01:51 AM   #143
gturner
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Re: 5 year old given rifle as gift, kills 2 year old sister

So cowboys who wear guns on their hips and drive around with three rifles in their pickup truck's gun rack doesn't result in more murders than a genteel country that bans just about every conceivable weapon, and banning guns in Chicago and Washington makes people have to rinse the blood off their sidewalks every morning from the constant murders. It's not just rural versus urban, either. Cities like Plano or El Paso have about 2 homicides per 100,000. Gun control cities like Chicago have about 20, and places like Detroit have over 50. BTW, the rape rate in major American cities varies by a factor of ten and the assault rate varies by a factor of twenty. The presence of a tool doesn't drive human behavior, human behavior drives tool use. America is awash in push-up bars, but that didn't make them start doing push ups.
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Old May 7 2013, 01:58 AM   #144
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Re: 5 year old given rifle as gift, kills 2 year old sister

gturner wrote: View Post
So cowboys who wear guns on their hips and drive around with three rifles in their pickup truck's gun rack doesn't result in more murders than a genteel country that bans just about every conceivable weapon, and banning guns in Chicago and Washington makes people have to rinse the blood off their sidewalks every morning from the constant murders. It's not just rural versus urban, either. Cities like Plano or El Paso have about 2 homicides per 100,000. Gun control cities like Chicago have about 20, and places like Detroit have over 50.
Didn't the high murder rates come first, and the attempts to control gun violence second?
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Old May 7 2013, 02:01 AM   #145
Tora Ziyal
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Re: 5 year old given rifle as gift, kills 2 year old sister

gturner wrote: View Post
Cities like Plano or El Paso have about 2 homicides per 100,000. Gun control cities like Chicago have about 20, and places like Detroit have over 50.
Chicken or egg? Wasn't gun control instituted in those cities at least partly because there was already a high homicide rate? (Oops, digits was making the same point at the same time.)

Also, you can't look at a small geographic area, such as a city, in isolation. If it has much stricter gun control than nearby jurisdictions, there are obviously going to be a lot of guns brought in from those jurisdictions.
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Old May 7 2013, 02:28 AM   #146
Gary7
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Re: 5 year old given rifle as gift, kills 2 year old sister

Melakon wrote: View Post
I'd seen the headlines, but just read the story within the hour. I simply don't understand why people would give a child that young a real rifle instead of an air rifle.

I'm not a parent, but is a 5 year old even capable of comprehending that a gun can kill people? Or of what death is?

There's some sort of irony at work here. In the 50s and 60s, I had cap pistols. Cowboys and Indians were all over TV. There were even some guns that shot plastic "bullets" like the Mattel Fanner 50 revolver. Then after the assassinations of JFK, RFK, and MLK, safety groups got involved and such toys were virtually eliminated. So now they give kids barely old enough to wipe their own asses real guns.
I agree wholeheartedly with you. I can't see any good reason for any gun aficionado parent to entrust their child with a semi or fully automatic weapon. And frankly, I don't think any kid under 13 should be allowed to use a firearm. There's just no sense in it, because they inherently don't have the maturity (there may be few exceptions, but tough luck--wait your turn to grow up). Sure, let them fire BB guns to develop the skills up until they reach teenage years THEN introduce them to basic firearms. Creating a "child weapon" is just horrifically irresponsible. I imagine some NRA lobbyist must have proclaimed "a child should be able to defend himself against an oppressive government!" and irresponsible politicians went along with it.
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Old May 7 2013, 02:29 AM   #147
Miss Chicken
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Re: 5 year old given rifle as gift, kills 2 year old sister

Also, you can't look at a small geographic area, such as a city, in isolation. If it has much stricter gun control than nearby jurisdictions, there are obviously going to be a lot of guns brought in from those jurisdictions.
Yes. When Tasmania had the laxest gun laws in Australia (pre-1996), Mainlanders use to catch the night ferry to Tasmania, legally buy guns here, and take them back on the ferry. We had current affair shows filming just how easy it was.
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Old May 7 2013, 03:23 AM   #148
gturner
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Re: 5 year old given rifle as gift, kills 2 year old sister

Tora Ziyal wrote: View Post
gturner wrote: View Post
Cities like Plano or El Paso have about 2 homicides per 100,000. Gun control cities like Chicago have about 20, and places like Detroit have over 50.
Chicken or egg? Wasn't gun control instituted in those cities at least partly because there was already a high homicide rate? (Oops, digits was making the same point at the same time.)

Also, you can't look at a small geographic area, such as a city, in isolation. If it has much stricter gun control than nearby jurisdictions, there are obviously going to be a lot of guns brought in from those jurisdictions.
If it's a chicken and an egg problem, the egg has hatched and is clucking around the yard.

There are many different reasons for gun control in some of the bigger northern cities. Some of it was from a culture clash where people from down South, who are extremely friendly but sometimes react to serious insults with lethal force, moved up north where people aren't as overtly friendly to strangers and like to hurl insults all day. The simplest solution was to disarm all the blacks. Other issues were inner city crime and gang activity, and the simplest solution was to disarm the blacks while pretending to disarm the Irish and Italians. It didn't really work out very well, because criminals have a much higher drive and incentive to get guns than their victims do, and of course they really don't care if they're breaking the law to do so.

Importing guns from outside the city is just a fact of life, and since the criminal gangs are fighting over control of cocaine and heroin distribution, drugs which have to come in from a hundred times as far and which are ten times easier for the police to detect along the entire route, the most effective conceivable attempts to stop gun smuggling will utterly fail. Heck, even ATF agents were selling military/police only pistols to Mexican drug gangs over the Internet.
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Old May 7 2013, 04:39 AM   #149
Data Holmes
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Re: 5 year old given rifle as gift, kills 2 year old sister

gturner wrote: View Post
Tora Ziyal wrote: View Post
gturner wrote: View Post
Cities like Plano or El Paso have about 2 homicides per 100,000. Gun control cities like Chicago have about 20, and places like Detroit have over 50.
Chicken or egg? Wasn't gun control instituted in those cities at least partly because there was already a high homicide rate? (Oops, digits was making the same point at the same time.)

Also, you can't look at a small geographic area, such as a city, in isolation. If it has much stricter gun control than nearby jurisdictions, there are obviously going to be a lot of guns brought in from those jurisdictions.
If it's a chicken and an egg problem, the egg has hatched and is clucking around the yard.

There are many different reasons for gun control in some of the bigger northern cities. Some of it was from a culture clash where people from down South, who are extremely friendly but sometimes react to serious insults with lethal force, moved up north where people aren't as overtly friendly to strangers and like to hurl insults all day. The simplest solution was to disarm all the blacks. Other issues were inner city crime and gang activity, and the simplest solution was to disarm the blacks while pretending to disarm the Irish and Italians. It didn't really work out very well, because criminals have a much higher drive and incentive to get guns than their victims do, and of course they really don't care if they're breaking the law to do so.

Importing guns from outside the city is just a fact of life, and since the criminal gangs are fighting over control of cocaine and heroin distribution, drugs which have to come in from a hundred times as far and which are ten times easier for the police to detect along the entire route, the most effective conceivable attempts to stop gun smuggling will utterly fail. Heck, even ATF agents were selling military/police only pistols to Mexican drug gangs over the Internet.
A lot of the "modern" firearms bans in major cities such as LA, Chicago, D.C., ect were put into place in the 60's and 70's as a counter to fear of armed black, socialist, and anarchist political groups. The second wave was in '94 when the Clinton admin pushed the AWB through, and left leaning states and cities rushed to pass local legislation mirroring the federal ban, or like NJ or CA, push it further.
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Old May 7 2013, 08:15 AM   #150
iguana_tonante
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Re: 5 year old given rifle as gift, kills 2 year old sister

gturner wrote: View Post
So cowboys who wear guns on their hips and drive blah blah blah
I like it how you blather to distract from the fact that your "statistics" were completely invented.

As usual.
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