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Star Trek - Original Series The one that started it all...

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Old May 5 2013, 01:35 AM   #241
ZapBrannigan
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Re: Franz Joseph Blueprints Revisited

blssdwlf wrote: View Post
Pike suffered injuries on a cadet vessel that was an "old Class J Starship" in "The Menagerie". That would indicate there must be at least one other class of starship other than the one the Enterprise belongs to. Well unless the Enterprise was also an "old class J" which I doubt.
I think Class J is just Starfleet slang for "junk." So it could be a starship much like the Enterprise, but older and going out of commission.

My theory is supported by Harry Mudd flying "a small Class J cargo ship." Spock had to specify small and cargo, because "Class J" only told you it was a piece of junk in Spock's estimation.
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Old May 5 2013, 01:42 AM   #242
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Re: Franz Joseph Blueprints Revisited

ZapBrannigan wrote: View Post
blssdwlf wrote: View Post
Pike suffered injuries on a cadet vessel that was an "old Class J Starship" in "The Menagerie". That would indicate there must be at least one other class of starship other than the one the Enterprise belongs to. Well unless the Enterprise was also an "old class J" which I doubt.
I think Class J is just Starfleet slang for "junk." So it could be a ship much like the Enterprise, but older and going out of commission.
Like Mudd's Class J as well Anyway it still means that even back then they were thinking of more than one class or flavor of starship. The Enterprise and her specific "Starship Class" starships had 12 active but there was room for other starships to exist as well.
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Old May 5 2013, 01:48 AM   #243
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Re: Franz Joseph Blueprints Revisited

Perhaps there were starships, and then there were Starships. Maybe a Starship was a starship's starship.
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Old May 6 2013, 10:55 AM   #244
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Re: Franz Joseph Blueprints Revisited

GSchnitzer wrote: View Post
All your points are worth considering. Ultimately, I don't think the evidence that the Enterprise is some class of vessel other than a Constitution class is actually very compelling. The evidence of that seems to be somewhat circumstantial and inconclusive.

But considering Matt Jefferies' preproduction sketch (if you seriously want to chalk it up and declare it as "fraud", you'd better come up with some solid evidence, please) and the "Enterprise Class" statements in The Making of Star Trek it's less circumstantial or inconclusive than "Constitution Class", especially considering how this one made it into the world and is now defended at all cost and the expense of the original series' creators and producers:
  • The creator of the Enterprise didn't know what he was doing (sketch indicating Enterprise to be the 17th design and the first in the series or "the first bird")
  • Producer Bob Justman didn't know what he was doing ("Enterprise Class")
  • Stephen E. Whitfield didn't know what he was doing ("Enterprise Class Starship")
While you and others create a lot of imaginative interpretations why the Enterprise should be a starship of the Constitution Class ("NCC-1700") you fail to comment how these starship registries on the starship status display in "Court-Martial" beginning with a prefix of "16" could seriously belong to a class that supposedly began with "17".

Greg Jein didn't reflect on this issue when he first wrote his treatise, but later - when approached with the issue of the "complete" bars on the starship status display - he conceded that a low "complete" bar could indicate a starship just being built and the lowest bar on this display was that of "1700"! (being the farthest from "complete").
According to Jefferies' nomenclature that would have been a new starship whose last two digits hadn't been determined, yet.

A logical conclusion, especially considering TOS-R, would have been that the Constitution's prefix began with a "16", too.

The "Space Seed" script mentioned "Constitution Class Starship" and everybody involved with the production would have wondered "What the heck is a Constitution Class Starship" especially since the bridge dedication plaque said "Starship Class".

The simple answer comes from the script itself and Khan stating that he has read several manuals of several starships, of which one obviously belonged to a Constitution Class. Thus, the Constitution Class was merely adding some "flavor" to the fictional universe of Star Trek. If you invoke Occam's Razor, please apply it accordingly.

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Last edited by Robert Comsol; May 6 2013 at 11:24 AM.
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Old May 6 2013, 02:06 PM   #245
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Re: Franz Joseph Blueprints Revisited

Robert Comsol wrote: View Post

Greg Jein didn't reflect on this issue when he first wrote his treatise, but later - when approached with the issue of the "complete" bars on the starship status display - he conceded that a low "complete" bar could indicate a starship just being built and the lowest bar on this display was that of "1700"! (being the farthest from "complete").
Why do you think the "Court Martial" chart shows ships being built? (Or, I guess, more accurately, why do you think that Greg Jein speculated that the bars on the "Star Ship Status" chart shows ships being built?) "The Case of Jonathan Doe Starship" makes reference to "ships in port and undergoing repair," but it doesn't seem to make reference to the idea that the ships, such as NCC-1700, were actually being constructed. Where does that idea come from?


"* R[uth ]B[erman]'s note. Readers may recall from T-N 23 that I speculated that the chart measured where the ships were in their five-year missions, as it was numbered in percentages--and the ship which Greg has here identified as the Intrepid had not only reached the 100% line but had a line beyond it starting over. Greg's theory, that the chart showed ships in port and undergoing repair, fits in better with the plot of the episode, and I asked him if he could find a way to reconcile a repair job which was more than 100% complete. He suggested that perhaps the extra percentage 'refers to some form of "finishing touch" labor, i.e., painting, checking computer, etc' and the first part of the graph 'to heavy mechanical labor/construction.'"


What you probably need to do is look at the "Court Martial" script and actually find out exactly what information that "Star Ship Status" chart was scripted and intended to be communicated to the viewing audience.
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Old May 6 2013, 03:02 PM   #246
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Re: Franz Joseph Blueprints Revisited

I always believed that chart referred to ships being repaired.
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Old May 6 2013, 03:56 PM   #247
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Re: Franz Joseph Blueprints Revisited

Warped9 wrote: View Post
I always believed that chart referred to ships being repaired.
Yes, I think that's the logical assumption. I think that would be most people's assumption. But somehow Robert Comsol thinks that the "% Complete" bar graph on the "Star Ship Status" chart indicates that NCC-1700 is only about 11% of the way towards being built. I'm just not sure why he thinks that. (And, of course, that also means that NCC-1701 is only about 83% of the way towards being built.)

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Old May 6 2013, 04:21 PM   #248
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Re: Franz Joseph Blueprints Revisited

And none of those lines pass 100%, as indicated in the post above. They are repairs.
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Old May 6 2013, 04:22 PM   #249
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Re: Franz Joseph Blueprints Revisited


Am I missing something here regarding "over 100%"? There are 11 lines there, which look to be 0 to 100 in increments of 10, which means the longest % complete line would be about 100%.
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Old May 6 2013, 04:38 PM   #250
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Re: Franz Joseph Blueprints Revisited

Maurice wrote: View Post
Am I missing something here regarding "over 100%"? There are 11 lines there, which look to be 0 to 100 in increments of 10, which means the longest % complete line would be about 100%.
Yes, that shot is too tight to show the entire "Star Ship Status" chart. Here's what you're after:



The wider shot shows something beyond the 100%. Some people think this means "more than 100%," or that the line is "starting over." I think that all this indicator means is that "now that the repairs are 100% complete, the ship now has a green light to get back underway again." I think the little green dot/bar is just a "checkmark"--a "good to go" marker--which is why it's green instead of red like the bar graph lines, and why it doesn't have any percentage figures up at the top of the column. It also explains why it appears only on the vessel that has completed 100% of its repairs. (You people do watch the episodes, and not just the screen grabs posted here, right? )
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Old May 6 2013, 04:48 PM   #251
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Re: Franz Joseph Blueprints Revisited

GSchnitzer wrote: View Post
(And, of course, that also means that NCC-1701 is only about 83% of the way towards being built.)
Decisive.

Naturally, not everything there has to be in the same class. Many different kinds of ships can have NCC numbers.
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Old May 6 2013, 05:06 PM   #252
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Re: Franz Joseph Blueprints Revisited

CorporalCaptain wrote: View Post
GSchnitzer wrote: View Post
(And, of course, that also means that NCC-1701 is only about 83% of the way towards being built.)
Decisive.

Naturally, not everything there has to be in the same class. Many different kinds of ships can have NCC numbers.
Well, I think that when the chart was made, it was probably just a bunch of numbers intended to represent all kinds of Starfleet vessels. I'm not really sure why Greg Jein, in coming up with numbers for all of the twelve Star Ships felt compelled to use all the numbers seen on that chart. I mean, it's not like ten of the twelve happened to be parked at Starbase 11. Other than the numbers that we did actually see or hear being used, I think the numbers should be taken with a grain of salt.
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Old May 6 2013, 10:01 PM   #253
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Re: Franz Joseph Blueprints Revisited

GSchnitzer wrote: View Post
Why do you think that Greg Jein speculated that the bars on the "Star Ship Status" chart shows ships being built? "The Case of Jonathan Doe Starship" makes reference to "ships in port and undergoing repair," but it doesn't seem to make reference to the idea that the ships, such as NCC-1700, were actually being constructed. Where does that idea come from?

"* R[uth ]B[erman]'s note. ... He [Greg Jein] suggested that perhaps the extra percentage 'refers to some form of "finishing touch" labor, i.e., painting, checking computer, etc' and the first part of the graph 'to heavy mechanical labor/construction.'"
^^ In the end, Greg Jein himself suggested a different interpretation for "NCC-1700", but apparently most people (then and now) didn't read that far.

GSchnitzer wrote: View Post
What you probably need to do is look at the "Court Martial" script and actually find out exactly what information that "Star Ship Status" chart was scripted and intended to be communicated to the viewing audience.
Although I seriously doubt that the script will have such information, why exactly, do I need to examine the script?

According to Jefferies' Nomenclature the "Star Ship Status" chart shows starships of the 16th, 17th and 18th Federation cruiser design (reminder: before the producers settled for "Starship Class" the Enterprise was a member of the "Cruiser Class").
Apparently, we do see the NCC registries of starships of the Constitution, the Enterprise and the Miranda Class.

Bob
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Old May 6 2013, 10:16 PM   #254
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Re: Franz Joseph Blueprints Revisited

GSchnitzer wrote: View Post
I'm not really sure why Greg Jein, in coming up with numbers for all of the twelve Star Ships felt compelled to use all the numbers seen on that chart. I mean, it's not like ten of the twelve happened to be parked at Starbase 11. Other than the numbers that we did actually see or hear being used, I think the numbers should be taken with a grain of salt.
Jein interpreted the information from The Making of Star Trek not as "there are only 12 starships like the Enterprise" but as "there are only 12 starships" (in Starfleet).

The chart is specific as it only indicates starships, hence Jein's conclusion. I doubt these are all starships parked at Starbase 11 (then why bring starship captains in from the outside for Kirk's Court-Martial?), probably just starships that are being constructed and/or still require essential upgrades.

But what about the actual numbers? Jein's assumed NCC-1631 for the Intrepid turns out to be "1831" in HD.

And I'm not sure whether it's really "1664" and "1697" or rather "1864" (USS Reliant!) and "1897".

Bob
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Old May 6 2013, 11:23 PM   #255
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Re: Franz Joseph Blueprints Revisited

I think the "heavy mechanical and/or construction" comment probably means initial construction or reconstruction or refurbishment or refitting. I don't think the comment is meant to imply only initial constructions. Greg Jein seems to have meant the "heavy lifting" portion of major repair work, as opposed to the "finishing touches" and "punch list" items. You don't think NCC-1701 was only about 83 percent constructed, do you? You don't think that Greg Jein thought NCC-1701 was only 83 percent built, do you? And you don't think that Matt Jefferies thought that NCC-1701 was only 83 percent built, do you?

Scene 3 of the Final Draft script for "Court Martial" has the following conent:

"INT. STONE'S OFFICE

"FEATURING chart with legend: STAR SHIP STATUS. Columns lettered: Major Maintenance...Minor Maintenance...Ships Incoming...Ships Cleared."

In the end, Matt Jefferies seems to have exercised some artistic discretion. We have a "Star Ship Status" chart, but one that says "% complete"--and which shows those ships that have been "cleared" (by use of the little green bar on the 100% completed vessel). But it's clear that the intent of the chart was to show ships coming and going for maintenance, not ships being constructed. Why would NCC-1701 be undergoing construction?

(Also, I think none of the other ship captains who were already present on Stabase 11 were willing to serve on the court martial board of the Great Captain Kirk. In the end, they could only rustle up two; they had to settle for a "Space Command Representative" for the reamining trail board member.)

Robert Comsol wrote: View Post
GSchnitzer wrote: View Post
Why do you think that Greg Jein speculated that the bars on the "Star Ship Status" chart shows ships being built? "The Case of Jonathan Doe Starship" makes reference to "ships in port and undergoing repair," but it doesn't seem to make reference to the idea that the ships, such as NCC-1700, were actually being constructed. Where does that idea come from?

"* R[uth ]B[erman]'s note. ... He [Greg Jein] suggested that perhaps the extra percentage 'refers to some form of "finishing touch" labor, i.e., painting, checking computer, etc' and the first part of the graph 'to heavy mechanical labor/construction.'"
^^ In the end, Greg Jein himself suggested a different interpretation for "NCC-1700", but apparently most people (then and now) didn't read that far.

GSchnitzer wrote: View Post
What you probably need to do is look at the "Court Martial" script and actually find out exactly what information that "Star Ship Status" chart was scripted and intended to be communicated to the viewing audience.
Although I seriously doubt that the script will have such information, why exactly, do I need to examine the script?

According to Jefferies' Nomenclature the "Star Ship Status" chart shows starships of the 16th, 17th and 18th Federation cruiser design (reminder: before the producers settled for "Starship Class" the Enterprise was a member of the "Cruiser Class").
Apparently, we do see the NCC registries of starships of the Constitution, the Enterprise and the Miranda Class.

Bob
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