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Voyager There's coffee in this forum!

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Old May 4 2013, 01:20 PM   #61
teacake
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Re: Paris + B'Elanna scene, absolute cop-out

Why the heck would anyone want a Vulcan husband when there is zero chance they will drop dead first and leave you their wealth?
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Old May 4 2013, 01:32 PM   #62
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Re: Paris + B'Elanna scene, absolute cop-out

What do you mean zero?

Every seven years, how open the wife keeps her legs defines that poor bastards life expectancy.
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Old May 4 2013, 01:42 PM   #63
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Re: Paris + B'Elanna scene, absolute cop-out

That's diabolical. But what a shame that future medicine gets rid of headaches so easily. If the wife is unexpectedly unavailable, like she's broken all her bones in a shuttle accident or has sehlat rabies can the husband use a substitute? Since it's not like anyone is going to challenge him over the diseased wife. And what happens if your wife has something terrible happen but doesn't die but can never mate with you again, do they divorce over that? Are there comfort Vulcans who medicinally are supplied when needed? Or do they sentence the ones who have gone bad (like that dude in ENT who was a smuggler) to not-the-death-sentence but oh fight this guy his wife can't mate?
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Old May 4 2013, 01:57 PM   #64
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Re: Paris + B'Elanna scene, absolute cop-out

It's possible that you're both meant to die together.

Bonded as children, and then sex melded to booster the physical congress and telepathic link... That seems to have some expectations of permanence?

Besides it's poetic if you die because you spouse dies.

Stupid, but poetic.

Besides, they need to tackle over population somehow.

Although Sarek was married at least 4 times.

So, because of social mores, some spouses must chose not to unbond with their mate due to social conventions and expectations?
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Old May 4 2013, 02:01 PM   #65
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Re: Paris + B'Elanna scene, absolute cop-out

Dying together is only romantic if it happens when you are very old, like in The Notebook. Otherwise it is totally dumb because your kids are deprived of both their parents at once and have no one to move back in with and borrow money from. Of course this might not bother Vulcan kids but I do think it would bother Vulcan society if a brilliant Vulcan scientist's wife gets sehlat rabies and drops dead and he dies too because of the meld when he had a good 200 years left of benefiting his planet.
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Old May 4 2013, 02:12 PM   #66
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Re: Paris + B'Elanna scene, absolute cop-out

Tony and Maria?

The Vulcan Science Institute churns out 100s of thousands of fantastically capable scientists and engineers every year.

But nobody dies or seeks retirement.

Have you ever seen Whoops Apocalypse?

The Government convinced the workforce to jump off a cliff to make room for the children getting out of University.

How big was the Vulcan Empire before the Federation?
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Old May 4 2013, 03:42 PM   #67
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Re: Paris + B'Elanna scene, absolute cop-out

teacake wrote: View Post
Vorik.. awesome?
Late getting back to this, but yeah, I think so. For a Vulcan, he's pretty easygoing and I like that he wasn't all stuffy like Tuvok about the luau. He took on a little bit of the Vulcan superiority complex when he proposed to B'elanna, but overall he's pretty open minded as Vulcans go.

Captain Solok was interesting for other reasons. Here we have a Vulcan with a serious superiority complex that he's aware of and enjoys thoroughly. He judges "emotionally handicapped species", takes part in rivalries, and is generally a jerk all the way around. What's fascinating about him is while he's making fun of "illogical human bonding rituals" he teaches his crew to play one for the sole purpose of giving Sisko a hard time.

The most interesting Vulcans were the ones we saw infrequently. But that's just my opinion.
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Old May 5 2013, 01:50 PM   #68
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Re: Paris + B'Elanna scene, absolute cop-out

Captain Kathryn wrote: View Post
That scene never bothered me because MOST of the time, before that scene, Tom was depicted as being more of a womanizer type. But him saying "I want to do it with you, but I won't in your comprised state of mind" is when you start to see him in a different way. I like the Tom who respects women, especially the Tom who loves and respects B'Elanna. I am a fan of those two. The producers let their relationship grow instead of just throwing them together last minute.

I dunno, just my opinion.
YES. That. B'Elanna is different to Tom; so for once he does not think with his gonads. That he does so in a context where the gonads do all the talking (however silly) is called "irony".

I thought this episode, all things considered, was actually quite well conceived, especially following as it does on one of the last lines of the previous one, "Coda", in which Janeway (somewhat prophetically) says "I wonder if Tom and B'Elanna will ever stop sparring and develop a real friendship".

It's after this episode, and B'Elanna's "be careful what you wish for" at the end that their relationship changes and evolves.
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Old May 5 2013, 01:56 PM   #69
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Re: Paris + B'Elanna scene, absolute cop-out

Oh, one more thing. Re the heading for this thread "Absolute cop-out"? If you watch the episode all the way to the end, you will see that once it's been made clear to Tom that this is a life-or-death issue, he actually agrees and they come as close to "doing it" as anyone in Trek had to that day, until Vorik barged in. Where's the cop-out?
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Old May 5 2013, 04:57 PM   #70
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Re: Paris + B'Elanna scene, absolute cop-out

The cop-out is having Vorik interrupt the scene.
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Old May 5 2013, 05:35 PM   #71
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Re: Paris + B'Elanna scene, absolute cop-out

The cop out would be having Vorik OR Tom save the Klingon.

As "Tyrelle" once said in "If the Shoe Fits"

"Wow. You know what, Prince? You seem like a real nice fella, so I'm gonna make this nice and simple for ya. I don't need you, or a fairy godsmother, or anyone else to give me a happy ending. That's something that I'll get or I won't get all my own self. So I suggest you peddle this shoe someplace else."

As for the original poster's contention that...

O.k. I can understand a man of honour refusing a woman in this state if he knows that he's the last person on earth she'd ever consider when she's normal. But in this case all her disinhibition does is bring her real feelings to the surface.
Pray tell, HOW THE FRAK does Tom know that these are B'Elanna's real feelings? Sounds like the same age old argument the pursuer uses when the pursued has refused them. "I" know what "you" really want, so no doesn't mean no, and yes when impaired really ,means yes.

Talk about playing into 1950's idylic Americana culture.
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Old May 5 2013, 08:27 PM   #72
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Re: Paris + B'Elanna scene, absolute cop-out

I always just like how Tuvok said... "she has the right to be her own defender."

So you have Torres who is her own "defender" fighting to stop Vorik from mating with her if he wins.... isn't there another word for that?
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Old May 5 2013, 09:47 PM   #73
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Re: Paris + B'Elanna scene, absolute cop-out

What surprises me is it was written by a woman and not Brannon Braga. But she also wrote for Hercules: The Legendary Journeys so maybe that explains it.

Her only Voyager episode I liked was "Revulsion", but that also has Torres fighting off a crazy guy.
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Old May 6 2013, 12:43 AM   #74
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Re: Paris + B'Elanna scene, absolute cop-out

Guy Gardener wrote: View Post
There was a time, lets call it the 20th century, when it was permissible for a man to keep feeding a lady drink after drink until she suggested sex or passed out which invited sex...Or died from alcohol poisoning which didn't stop some from perusing sex.
Don't like obtaining consent, move to Saudi Arabia.

Tom was being a dick though.

B'Elanna would have died if she didn't kill someone or frakk someone.

It would have been a medicinal boff.
It's true, that is the difference between taking advantage of a drunk women and Tom having sex with B'elana. If she didn't her life was in danger, and it was pretty clear that B'elana would make the same choice sober, having sex with Tom rather than dying.
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Old May 6 2013, 01:09 AM   #75
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Re: Paris + B'Elanna scene, absolute cop-out

If B'Elanna had died, could Tom have been charged with murder for withholding his penis?
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