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Old May 5 2013, 10:02 PM   #106
Gaith
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Re: 5 year old given rifle as gift, kills 2 year old sister

gturner wrote: View Post
JarodRussell wrote: View Post
So unless you're a licensed hunter, what's the need for a firearm?
What's the need for:
A television.
A sports car.
Two sports cars.
A motorcycle.
More than three pairs of shoes.
A lawn.
Cheap sunglasses.
A second bathroom.

Unlike those, a gun can defend your life or put food on the table.
*sigh*

Perhaps it's time for this thread to go to a loving family in the countryside...
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Old May 5 2013, 10:25 PM   #107
iguana_tonante
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Re: 5 year old given rifle as gift, kills 2 year old sister

Kenbushway wrote: View Post
I know you'd rather there not be any guns in children's possession but frankly that isn't going to happen.
Yeah, we dream the impossible dream. A world where children don't have access to fucking guns, a world where parent don't give fucking functional rifles to their offspring, a world where "shoot the baby sister" is not the main recreational hobby of preschoolers. Not in our lifetime, I know. But we dare to dream! (That was sarcasm. I spell it out because you are known to be somehow... naive.)

Kenbushway wrote: View Post
One could go into the argument about how millions of other kids have received one of these or like and haven't used it in-correctly
Yeah, one could.

Kenbushway wrote: View Post
but I will simply say you have only really 2 choices. Either kids are given real guns that they could hurt-kill themselves with or you have guns made for children which are safer on average. I know that its not much a choice and you find it disturbing but what is another POSSIBLE solution?
How about: don't give fucking guns to children?

farmkid wrote: View Post
JarodRussell wrote: View Post
Right, the purpose of weapons is recreation.
I've shot thousands of rounds, every single one of them for recreation.
Give a try to masturbation. It's cheaper and less dangerous, to yourself and others.

farmkid wrote: View Post
iguana_tonante wrote: View Post
So, by your own words, the main problem is not that there are 9 guns every 10 people in the US (including toddlers), or that it is considered somehow normal to give 5-year old kids a functional rifle. The problem is parents who don't own gun (or, as you so deftly put it "are scared of guns" and "cower in fears" of weapons) because they won't train their kids like they are some kind of baby militia.
Um, no, you still aren't understanding what I said so I'll spell it out for you.
I understand perfectly. The point is that you don't seem fazed that kids have such easy access to weapons, to the point of owning their own kiddie guns. You can blather about kids "knowing how to handle it safely", but you should be smart enough to know it's bullshit. Kids and guns don't mix. Period.

farmkid wrote: View Post
If my kid finds a gun somewhere, I don't have to worry that they'll pick it up and accidentally shoot someone. They know how to handle it safely. More importantly, because they've shot guns before, it's not some magic talisman to them and they're much more likely to obey my instructions to leave it alone and find an adult than pick it up to explore. I'm more worried that one of their friends who come from a household where guns are scary evil things will pick it up because they're more curious about it having no experience with it. If they do pick it up, the chance of an accident is much higher than if my kid does so because the other kid has no idea how to handle it safely. I hope that's clear enough for you, because if not I'm not sure I can make it much clearer.
It is perfectly clear, and utter bullshit. It's a false dichotomy. "You either train your kids to use guns, or they will be at risk when they find one". Uh, how about you don't make guns available to kids? Or even better, how about you don't have 280 million guns around in your country?

Whatever safety protocols you instilled in your children, the point is: less guns lying around like they are household items, less accidental discharges. It's maths.

As an addendum: if you are going to point fingers about being "disingenuous", you should refrain from making sweeping statements like "household where guns are scary evil things". Because it makes you look, well, the opposite of ingenious.
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Last edited by iguana_tonante; May 5 2013 at 11:12 PM.
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Old May 5 2013, 11:00 PM   #108
gturner
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Re: 5 year old given rifle as gift, kills 2 year old sister

^ But children and guns have never been much of a problem for us (older teens in bad neighborhoods are another story). My dad's entire family was probably hunting by age six or so, as were his parents, and their parents, and their parents. Before them, Indian children ran around with weapons, too. We don't want children to be infants forever and we only have about a ten year window to wean them off cartoons and teach them how to hunt, how to skin rabbits, how to disable and subdue armed attackers (been teaching that to the junior-high kid next door), how to fire submarine-launched anti-ship missiles, and so forth. That's not much time between banging a sippy cup and having to master force deconfliction and battlespace management, and somewhere in there they have to learn a bunch of other really important stuff.
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Old May 5 2013, 11:36 PM   #109
Peach Wookiee
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Re: 5 year old given rifle as gift, kills 2 year old sister

^Wait, wait, wait... why wean them off cartoons? Cartoons are good for you! Well... some of them are.
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Old May 5 2013, 11:56 PM   #110
gturner
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Re: 5 year old given rifle as gift, kills 2 year old sister

Well, I suppose they can still watch cartoons like The Tick and Southpark.

We'll also keep teaching children how to use weapons, one day putting a kid on the bridge of the Starship Enterprise so he can hurl photon torpedoes or fire phasers as the situation might require.
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Old May 6 2013, 12:14 AM   #111
Kenbushway
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Re: 5 year old given rifle as gift, kills 2 year old sister

[QUOTE]
iguana_tonante wrote: View Post
Kenbushway wrote: View Post
I know you'd rather there not be any guns in children's possession but frankly that isn't going to happen.
Yeah, we dream the impossible dream. A world where children don't have access to fucking guns, a world where parent don't give fucking functional rifles to their offspring, a world where "shoot the baby sister" is not the main recreational hobby of preschoolers. Not in our lifetime, I know. But we dare to dream! (That was sarcasm. I spell it out because you are known to be somehow... naive.)
I don't always get sarcasm but don't get on me from making a valid point, even if you don't like it. You can't control others. The fact is some parents will give their children guns, most of the guns aren't used in harmful ways. You cannot stop or prevent people from giving their kids weapons. There is exceptions to every rule, so unless you make laws its going to happen. So the only real choices you have is that the children are given adults weapons or child weapons. No need for the dramatic or the extreme. Children and guns may not mix but when they do, for the most part, nothing happens. That is fact, no need to go to "You should be smart enough to know" shit.
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Old May 6 2013, 12:25 AM   #112
iguana_tonante
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Re: 5 year old given rifle as gift, kills 2 year old sister

Kenbushway wrote: View Post
I don't always get sarcasm but don't get on me from making a valid point, even if you don't like it.
You rarely, if ever, make a valid point. This isn't one of this rare instances.

Kenbushway wrote: View Post
You cannot stop or prevent people from giving their kids weapons.
Uh, yes, I can. That's what laws are for. That's how other countries deal with it. And I hope you don't give me any of that 2nd Amendment shit, unless you want to argue that you will overthrow a tyrannical government with an army of gun-toting 5-year old kiddies.

Kenbushway wrote: View Post
No need for the dramatic or the extreme.
Right. It's not like something irreparable could happen. Oh, wait.

Kenbushway wrote: View Post
Children and guns may not mix but when they do, for the most part, nothing happens.
Same with people and alcohol, and yet you can't have a beer before you are old enough to be out of college. America: the country where you can't have a beer before you are 21, but you can have a rifle at 5.
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Old May 6 2013, 12:31 AM   #113
farmkid
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Re: 5 year old given rifle as gift, kills 2 year old sister

iguana_tonante wrote: View Post
farmkid wrote: View Post
Um, no, you still aren't understanding what I said so I'll spell it out for you.
I understand perfectly. The point is that you don't seem fazed that kids have such easy access to weapons, to the point of owning their own kiddie guns. You can blather about kids "knowing how to handle it safely", but you should be smart enough to know it's bullshit. Kids and guns don't mix. Period.
I didn't say I have no problem with kid having easy access to guns. Once again you're putting words into my mouth. I clearly said that if kids are going to be taught to shoot they need to be taught proper practices first and foremost, and should only have access to guns under close adult supervision. That's a far cry from "easy access to weapons".
farmkid wrote: View Post
If my kid finds a gun somewhere, I don't have to worry that they'll pick it up and accidentally shoot someone. They know how to handle it safely. More importantly, because they've shot guns before, it's not some magic talisman to them and they're much more likely to obey my instructions to leave it alone and find an adult than pick it up to explore. I'm more worried that one of their friends who come from a household where guns are scary evil things will pick it up because they're more curious about it having no experience with it. If they do pick it up, the chance of an accident is much higher than if my kid does so because the other kid has no idea how to handle it safely. I hope that's clear enough for you, because if not I'm not sure I can make it much clearer.
It is perfectly clear, and utter bullshit. It's a false dichotomy. "You either train your kids to use guns, or they will be at risk when they find one". Uh, how about you don't make guns available to kids?
Okay, so you would rather have kids not able to handle the situation should they find a gun somewhere. Personally, I would rather prepare my children for as many situations as they might encounter as possible, but I guess that's just me.
Or even better, how about you don't have 280 million guns around in your country?
Go ahead and try to take them all away. I doubt you'll get very far.
Whatever safety protocols you instilled in your children, the point is: less guns lying around like they are household items, less accidental discharges. It's maths.
Yes, that's true. But I never said anything about them finding a gun laying around my house. That won't happen. I guess the other option is to never let them out of my sight to be sure they won't come across a gun somewhere else.

I think I'm done discussing this. You aren't arguing in good faith (hence the comment about being "disingenuous", look it up if you don't know what it means", and I have no interest in continuing with someone who is only interested in twisting arguments to make someone look bad, rather than making sincere arguments.
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Old May 6 2013, 12:37 AM   #114
Miss Chicken
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Re: 5 year old given rifle as gift, kills 2 year old sister

Can someone tell me what the difference is between the death of this child and the child in this report

At about 7:40 a.m. on Wednesday, officers in Arizona were dispatched to a residence in response to a report of a child having been shot, where a 35 year-old woman was later charged in the death of her 3 year-old grandson, Darrien Nez.

Court records state that Rachel B. Spry, who owns a 9mm handgun, was staying at the residence in order to help her daughter pack for a move.

Spry’s gun was tucked inside of a backpack, along with a meth pipe, while she was packing the contents of the bathroom that morning. She placed the backpack on top of a clothes dryer, and according to court records, Spry saw her grandson enter the room, but continued to pack.
source
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Old May 6 2013, 01:00 AM   #115
Kenbushway
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Re: 5 year old given rifle as gift, kills 2 year old sister

iguana_tonante wrote: View Post
Uh, yes, I can. That's what laws are for. That's how other countries deal with it. And I hope you don't give me any of that 2nd Amendment shit, unless you want to argue that you will overthrow a tyrannical government with an army of gun-toting 5-year old kiddies.

Did you miss the part or just not quote where I said unless you change the laws? Currently giving a child a gun isn't against the law. Oh shit looks like one of those rare times I made a valid point huh.
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Old May 6 2013, 01:22 AM   #116
iguana_tonante
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Re: 5 year old given rifle as gift, kills 2 year old sister

farmkid wrote: View Post
I think I'm done discussing this. You aren't arguing in good faith (hence the comment about being "disingenuous", look it up if you don't know what it means", and I have no interest in continuing with someone who is only interested in twisting arguments to make someone look bad, rather than making sincere arguments.
Oh me so sorrya, me notta speakka goodda Inglis.

I know perfectly well what "disingenuous" means, thus my pun about your arguments not being very ingenious either, i.e. not very clever.

I hope you are done discussing this, because it means I don't have to hear you dissing people who disagree with you as "terrified of guns", and insinuating that I'm a furriner who doesn't speak the language. Sincere arguments, my arse.

Kenbushway wrote: View Post
Did you miss the part or just not quote where I said unless you change the laws? Currently giving a child a gun isn't against the law. Oh shit looks like one of those rare times I made a valid point huh.
Uh-uh. And did you miss the part when I said that laws are exactly what you need, to prevent people from giving their kids weapons? Keep digging, auto kid.
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Old May 6 2013, 01:26 AM   #117
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Re: 5 year old given rifle as gift, kills 2 year old sister

The obsession with guns is one of the uglier parts of my country and it's sad to see how many people still happily display it. I just can't understand being so passionate about a device made for the sole purpose of killing.
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Old May 6 2013, 02:25 AM   #118
foxhot
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Re: 5 year old given rifle as gift, kills 2 year old sister

For a few brief moments post-Sandy Hook, Wayne LaPierre was actually making occasional sense (i.e. pushing for additional school security through police as opposed to arming teachers).
Yesterday that changed again when he essentially asked whether those in Boston wished they had guns immediately after the Marathon bombings. Or even during. While that's not an exact quote, that's the mental picture he gave me through his words. But the vast majority of guns were in responsible hands by that week's end anyway.
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Old May 6 2013, 05:02 AM   #119
Owain Taggart
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Re: 5 year old given rifle as gift, kills 2 year old sister

foxhot wrote: View Post
While that's not an exact quote, that's the mental picture he gave me through his words. But the vast majority of guns were in responsible hands by that week's end anyway.

Yeah, that one puzzled me. Unless I'm missing something obvious, it was almost as if to say, being armed would have stopped the fact that those guys had bombs, which is a rather bold statement to make.

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Old May 6 2013, 01:11 PM   #120
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Re: 5 year old given rifle as gift, kills 2 year old sister

farmkid wrote: View Post
WRONG. I see this argument all the time and it really annoys me because it is absolutely wrong. Guns can be used to kill people, sure, but that is not their only purpose by any means. They are primarily a recreational object but they can also be used for killing. I and many people I know have done a lot of shooting.
I think you got that backwards...
They where meant to quickly and easily kill living beings...
That a lot of people now go to a shooting range and use their guns for target shooting is a good side-effect/evolution...
But 2 reasons why this happened are that we don't have to hunt our own food anymore and there is law-enforcement for when dangerous people need to be stopped...
But guns aren't toys or sports-equipment, they are power-tools for killing animals and humans...
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