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Go Back   The Trek BBS > Star Trek TV Series > Enterprise

Enterprise The final frontier has a new beginning in this forum!

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Old May 4 2013, 07:12 PM   #16
horatio83
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Re: “In Conversation” or “Berman and Braga vs the world.”

What failure, the canceling? It had, like in the case of TOS, more to do with dubious executive decisions (who cancels a show when it becomes better?) and bad time slots.
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Old May 4 2013, 07:33 PM   #17
Melakon
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Re: “In Conversation” or “Berman and Braga vs the world.”

I'm not trashing the show, though it sounds like you think I am. I wanted it to succeed, and watched it as often as was physically possible until I couldn't pick up the station anymore due to moves. I don't remember a lot of time slot shuffling, I thought it had Voyager's slot on UPN.
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Old May 4 2013, 07:42 PM   #18
horatio83
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Re: “In Conversation” or “Berman and Braga vs the world.”

I am not wanting to defend the flaws of the shows, it has plenty. I just don't understand why any showrunner should apologize for his work.

Is Freiberger responsible for the cancellation of TOS because he ran the show during its last year, is Roddenberry responsible for jumping the ship a year before?
I guess so but there were also ample of studio decisions that were more important and I still fail to see why anyone would want anybody to apologize for the cancellation of a show or what they perceive as bad creative work. Some people like me perceive it as good work.
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Old May 4 2013, 08:03 PM   #19
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Re: “In Conversation” or “Berman and Braga vs the world.”

JirinPanthosa wrote: View Post
I believe that Berman and Braga wanted to make a more interesting show than we got the first two seasons.

But that doesn't excuse the quality of the writing. For years Brannon Braga wrote excellent scripts in the even more restrictive Roddenberry Box, why couldn't he write equally good scripts for Enterprise with equal restrictions? Why did it take a new executive producer to get some decent scripts, when Braga was responsible for some of the best TNG scripts?
Braga... I dunno, he always seemed best when teamed up with a good writer. He'd make a good script even better. Likewise if teamed up with a bad writer... well just look at season 1 of Enterprise. A crappy script turned even crappier.
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Old May 4 2013, 08:08 PM   #20
Melakon
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Re: “In Conversation” or “Berman and Braga vs the world.”

There were lots of things I disliked in the early episodes, but now that I've finally been able to watch them several times-- often as much as one episode five times in a row-- I am able to see things I initially missed and have changed some of those bad first impressions. There's no element of the franchise I completely dislike, just disappointment with fumbled or missed opportunities.

And I suppose B&B are no different than any other executive in any other business. It's like a politician blaming everyone else for his failure to get enough votes.

Impressionist David Frye frequently lampooned Nixon during the Watergate crisis: "As President, I take full responsibility... but not the blame. Let me explain that. People who are to blame, lose their jobs. Those who are responsible, do not."
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Old May 4 2013, 10:02 PM   #21
JirinPanthosa
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Re: “In Conversation” or “Berman and Braga vs the world.”

Anyone who says you can't write a good science fiction show completely within an episodic formula should go have a chat with any Stargate writer.
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Old May 5 2013, 09:09 PM   #22
Danger Ace
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Re: “In Conversation” or “Berman and Braga vs the world.”

horatio83 wrote: View Post
They have actually frequently said that ENT wasn't perfect.
That is hardly a real or sincere or even a mea culpa of any kind. First and foremost, nothing is perfect. A generalized statement that Enterprise was flawed is a statement of fact not a reflective acknowledgement of culpability. It is a non-apology designed to deflect.

It's almost like pleading "no contest" wherein they concede Enterprise failed, but refuse to say anything specific that could be construed as the failure being the result of their stewardship.

Melakon wrote: View Post
I saw the first two years of Enterprise in first broadcast, and realized it was in trouble early on. This impression is not due to fan reaction as I wasn't heavily active on fan sites like this in those days. I was watching Star Trek since 1966, and all the shows have elements I didn't care for.
It's funny, in the beginning I was actually a defender of Enterprise. Back on AOL's Star Trek forum some blasted the very notion of a prequel series and those critics were made even more skeptical by Berman making Brannon Braga the executive-producer.

My position was simply the prequel premise was sound enough in principle and could easily work in practice. As for Braga, to my mind, new series, clean slate. I gave him amnesty and a fresh opportunity to impress.

Enterprise, like the other modern era Treks, started off weak, but after season one was over I assumed they would do a postmortem for the purpose of making the necessary changes. Sadly, season two started off weaker then the previous season ended - It was actually getting worse and not better! By mid-season I was done.

So, in my case, Enterprise drove me to go from champion to critic wherein Berman and Braga were the navigator and driver of that shuttle. I probably would have stuck with a mediocre Star Trek series, but Enterprise, to my surprise, fell short of even that low bar.

It would admittedly be hard to forgive and forget the damage done by Berman & Braga even if they did give an honest and heartfelt mea culpa (with specificity),but it is impossible without it.
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Old May 5 2013, 10:02 PM   #23
Melakon
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Re: “In Conversation” or “Berman and Braga vs the world.”

Braga was an inventive writer in the earlier series, and came up with some of the best mindblower episodes ever. But he wasn't good at sitting in the big chair. Berman was the opposite. Whatever talents they individually had, together they seemed to cancel each other out.
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Old May 5 2013, 10:37 PM   #24
horatio83
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Re: “In Conversation” or “Berman and Braga vs the world.”

Danger Ace wrote: View Post
It would admittedly be hard to forgive and forget the damage done by Berman & Braga even if they did give an honest and heartfelt mea culpa (with specificity),but it is impossible without it.
Damage? Bullshit. I love the show. And if you don't like it don't watch it. Expecting that these guys should apologize for not having created something which matches your preferences is fancentric nonsense.

No artist should ever apologize for anything. On the contrary, if you work creatively a certain amount of arrogance doesn't hurt. To quote David Simon: Anything I've ever accomplished as a writer, as somebody doing TV, anything I've ever done in life, down to, like, cleaning up my room, has been accomplished because I was going to show people that they were fucked up, wrong, and that I was the fucking center of the universe and the sooner they got hip to that, the happier they would all be.
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Old May 5 2013, 10:53 PM   #25
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Re: “In Conversation” or “Berman and Braga vs the world.”

Using the words of David Simon, who started his career as a journalist, to defend Brannon Braga, who started his career as a television writer, is an injustice to Simon.
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Old May 5 2013, 10:58 PM   #26
horatio83
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Re: “In Conversation” or “Berman and Braga vs the world.”

Why? Not that I am claiming that Braga is a better writer, I would just like to know why.

Not that I really care that much about defending Braga in the first place. I have more love for Berman and am rather pointing out the ridiculous behaviour of some Trek fans.
I don't like Orci's work, I think he is one of the worst writers who has ever written a Trek story. But I would sure as hell never come up with the egocentric notion that this guy should apologize for his work just because I happen to not like it.
I prefer the good old days in which people produced a book or movie and did not have to constantly interact with the fans and deal with such appalling behaviour.
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Old May 5 2013, 11:13 PM   #27
Melakon
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Re: “In Conversation” or “Berman and Braga vs the world.”

Why do you keep insisting everyone defend their opinions anytime they say something you don't agree with? It's obvious you like Enterprise. A lot of us like Enterprise, but are disappointed with how the show was executed. This isn't a debate class.
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Old May 5 2013, 11:21 PM   #28
horatio83
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Re: “In Conversation” or “Berman and Braga vs the world.”

I don't mind strong opinions but if somebody thinks that his opinion is so important that it warrants the demand that show runners apologize for the work they have done for three years I do indeed have the audacity to call this bullshit.
Fans want to be the center of the universe but they aren't.
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Old May 5 2013, 11:54 PM   #29
Melakon
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Re: “In Conversation” or “Berman and Braga vs the world.”

horatio83 wrote: View Post
I don't mind strong opinions but if somebody thinks that his opinion is so important that it warrants the demand that show runners apologize for the work they have done for three years I do indeed have the audacity to call this bullshit.
Fans want to be the center of the universe but they aren't.
No where in this thread do I say they should apologize.

But I do apologize to you for the "debate class" comment. It was undignified.
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Old May 6 2013, 12:06 AM   #30
horatio83
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Re: “In Conversation” or “Berman and Braga vs the world.”

No harm done. Talking about debate classes, I wonder how they look like on Tellar Prime.
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