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Star Trek - Original Series The one that started it all...

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Old May 2 2013, 05:25 PM   #211
trevanian
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Re: How Far Should TOS-R Have Gone?

The thing is, at this point you've got LOTS of reference ... not just the original TOS shots, but also the ModernTrek era and other space films. For that matter, since most of this stuff is on a 2d plane, good compositional reference can be gotten from ship-at-sea stuff.

Screwing up the point of the visual in order to have a grain-free one that appeals to younger viewers seems like shooting oneself in the foot to avoid jogging, then complaining it takes too long to limp to the mailbox.
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Old May 5 2013, 07:24 PM   #212
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Re: How Far Should TOS-R Have Gone?

Mr. Laser Beam wrote: View Post
I think TOS-R was just fine as it is. Now what they really need to do is a TAS-R. Full CGI. Get rid of the crappy 70's animation and go all-out.
I would LOVE to see that happen!
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Old May 5 2013, 07:48 PM   #213
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Re: How Far Should TOS-R Have Gone?

I'd like to see TAS remastered with better hand drawn animation (or CGI augmented hand animation), but full CGI would totally destroy the charm of it. Some of us prefer our cartoons one-dimensional
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Old May 5 2013, 08:25 PM   #214
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Re: How Far Should TOS-R Have Gone?

Forbin wrote: View Post
Maurice wrote: View Post
  1. Finally, the big fault of the remastered effects is that they frequently demonstrate that the new effects team didn't understand basic cinematography. Example: the battle sequence in Elaan of Troyius is a complete mess in terms of basic (and I mean Film Composition 101) directional continuity.
This is my biggest complaint too. Another example is the orbital shot of Apollo's hand holding the ship. Crappy composition - your eye doesn't know where to look to get the point of the shot.
You mean this mess?
http://tos.trekcore.com/hd/albums/2x...aishd0195a.jpg

Third Nacelle wrote: View Post
I'd like to see TAS remastered with better hand drawn animation (or CGI augmented hand animation), but full CGI would totally destroy the charm of it. Some of us prefer our cartoons one-dimensional
One dimension is a straight line.
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Old May 5 2013, 08:27 PM   #215
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Re: How Far Should TOS-R Have Gone?

plynch wrote: View Post
Why not make a new physical model of the Ent and shoot her under similar lights and film grain, rather than CGI? Just do it with what is currently the best tech.
That's what they should have done. Also for replacement shots in TNG-R.

The shots they did with the physical 1701 model for the DS9 Tribble episode are a million times better than the best CGI shot in TOS-R.
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Old May 5 2013, 08:31 PM   #216
Third Nacelle
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Re: How Far Should TOS-R Have Gone?

Maurice wrote: View Post
Forbin wrote: View Post
Maurice wrote: View Post
  1. Finally, the big fault of the remastered effects is that they frequently demonstrate that the new effects team didn't understand basic cinematography. Example: the battle sequence in Elaan of Troyius is a complete mess in terms of basic (and I mean Film Composition 101) directional continuity.
This is my biggest complaint too. Another example is the orbital shot of Apollo's hand holding the ship. Crappy composition - your eye doesn't know where to look to get the point of the shot.
You mean this mess?
http://tos.trekcore.com/hd/albums/2x...aishd0195a.jpg

Third Nacelle wrote: View Post
I'd like to see TAS remastered with better hand drawn animation (or CGI augmented hand animation), but full CGI would totally destroy the charm of it. Some of us prefer our cartoons one-dimensional
One dimension is a straight line.
Maybe I like to cover my television with duct tape, leaving a gap one pixel wide.

You know what I meant
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Old May 6 2013, 12:17 AM   #217
TREK_GOD_1
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Re: How Far Should TOS-R Have Gone?

JarodRussell wrote: View Post
The shots they did with the physical 1701 model for the DS9 Tribble episode are a million times better than the best CGI shot in TOS-R.
Agreed. There's no digital replacement for a physical, detailed body, and your example--compared to TOS-R--proves the point.
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Old May 6 2013, 01:19 AM   #218
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Re: How Far Should TOS-R Have Gone?

MANT! wrote: View Post
BillJ wrote: View Post
trevanian wrote: View Post
Yeah, CITIZEN KANE has certainly lost its meaning down through the years because Ted Turner wasn't able to colorize it.

Art just IS. Interpretation of art is what changes over time. If you change the art to suit the interpretter, it isn't art anymore, it is masturbation. And I'm through listening to you lovelies jerk off over this.
Or you could act like a grown up and realize not everyone thinks the same way you do? Just a thought.

Here.. Here... see the fandamentalist at work..

Star Trek TOS is equated to
Citizen Kane
.. so in some opinions, a TV show designed to make MONEY first and foremost is equated as not just art, but HIGH art..
One can only think since Paramount's show competed with "Gomer Pyle USMC" and ended up battered in the ratings..to the point of cancellation, the point could be made that "Gomer Pyle USMC" was better art than Star Trek! After all, "Gomer Pyle USMC" was a success and made a LOT of money and Star Trek a failure...

but heck it's not like some can accept dissent (or Heresy if one prefers), as at that point those folks fit the very definition of fandamentalists..

Remember, someone started the name calling, and let it degenerate from there..right down to references to the KKK and now masturbation ..

Such witty comebacks..
Don't think I noticed this reply till now ... KANE is an ideal example not because of its status as a film classic, but because of a detail in Welles' contract -- one I'm not aware of being in the contract for any other film -- that basically said you couldn't change the look of the film after the fact ... I'm pretty sure Turner had already colorized when the legal folks told him he couldn't release it.

So this represents the kind of protection art forms deserve, to keep folks from tampering with them after the fact, which makes it completely relevant to a discussion of TOS-R, whatever you happen to think of TOS (or KANE's) merits. And as far as namecalling goes, hey, so the fuck what? I'm not the one advocating for giving kids crayolas at the art museum, which is basically what TOS-R amounts to at times.

It's funny to me that STAR WARS was selected for film preservation and yet look what GL did to it after that ...
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Old May 6 2013, 01:21 AM   #219
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Re: How Far Should TOS-R Have Gone?

TREK_GOD_1 wrote: View Post
JarodRussell wrote: View Post
The shots they did with the physical 1701 model for the DS9 Tribble episode are a million times better than the best CGI shot in TOS-R.
Agreed. There's no digital replacement for a physical, detailed body, and your example--compared to TOS-R--proves the point.
Financially it is just impossible to shoot miniatures mo-con economically anymore, according to everybody. I do not understand why, and it is a question I've been asking industry professionals for 15 years. Always the same vague 'stage costs too high/system rental too high' which just seems very unlikely given the budgets allocated.
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Old May 6 2013, 02:04 AM   #220
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Re: How Far Should TOS-R Have Gone?

JarodRussell wrote: View Post
plynch wrote: View Post
Why not make a new physical model of the Ent and shoot her under similar lights and film grain, rather than CGI? Just do it with what is currently the best tech.
That's what they should have done. Also for replacement shots in TNG-R.

The shots they did with the physical 1701 model for the DS9 Tribble episode are a million times better than the best CGI shot in TOS-R.
getting in on this very very late in the game, I completley missed the fact they used a model in the ds9 tribble episode. I am going to check that out right now!

I like the TOS-R, I also own a foreign rip off dvd of the old ones....I like seeing new graphics on netflix etc because it is easy to turn on the internet tv and hit play

...but I also find myself thinking about the original dvds
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Old May 6 2013, 04:19 AM   #221
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Re: How Far Should TOS-R Have Gone?

Maurice wrote: View Post
Forbin wrote: View Post
Maurice wrote: View Post
  1. Finally, the big fault of the remastered effects is that they frequently demonstrate that the new effects team didn't understand basic cinematography. Example: the battle sequence in Elaan of Troyius is a complete mess in terms of basic (and I mean Film Composition 101) directional continuity.
This is my biggest complaint too. Another example is the orbital shot of Apollo's hand holding the ship. Crappy composition - your eye doesn't know where to look to get the point of the shot.
You mean this mess?
http://tos.trekcore.com/hd/albums/2x...aishd0195a.jpg

Third Nacelle wrote: View Post
I'd like to see TAS remastered with better hand drawn animation (or CGI augmented hand animation), but full CGI would totally destroy the charm of it. Some of us prefer our cartoons one-dimensional
One dimension is a straight line.
I think that screencap looks quite good, actually. I mean, really, what else can you do with a giant green hand from outer space grabbing the saucer section of your starship? How convincing can something be in that situation?
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Old May 6 2013, 04:31 AM   #222
Gep Malakai
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Re: How Far Should TOS-R Have Gone?

It's not about being convincing (in this case), it's about bad composition. The entire visual balance of that image is strongly weighted to screen right, creating an off-balance sense. And the intersection of the hand and the Enterprise's saucer is smack dab in the center of the screen and set right on top of the planet's horizon. The result is an unbalanced visual jumble. The rules of composition have been discarded and a number of cluttered element are concentrated in the middle of the image, resulting in a lack of focus.

It's poor quality work. If you don't believe me, believe Maurice; he does this stuff for a living.
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Old May 6 2013, 09:00 AM   #223
Maurice
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Re: How Far Should TOS-R Have Gone?

A good composition directs your gaze. The hand shot has too much detail on one side of the image, what with the hand overlapping the planet, etc., so it becomes clutter and the eye wants to jump off into the negative space to the left.
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Old May 6 2013, 01:13 PM   #224
Marsden
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Re: How Far Should TOS-R Have Gone?

J. Allen wrote: View Post
Maurice wrote: View Post
Forbin wrote: View Post

This is my biggest complaint too. Another example is the orbital shot of Apollo's hand holding the ship. Crappy composition - your eye doesn't know where to look to get the point of the shot.
You mean this mess?
http://tos.trekcore.com/hd/albums/2x...aishd0195a.jpg

Third Nacelle wrote: View Post
I'd like to see TAS remastered with better hand drawn animation (or CGI augmented hand animation), but full CGI would totally destroy the charm of it. Some of us prefer our cartoons one-dimensional
One dimension is a straight line.
I think that screencap looks quite good, actually. I mean, really, what else can you do with a giant green hand from outer space grabbing the saucer section of your starship? How convincing can something be in that situation?
I like it, too. Instead of the hand floating in space, it's coming from the planet, like Apollo reached up from his temple. Maybe it should be framed differently, but I don't see a problem, but I'm just a consumer, not a creator, so I don't have any technical know how or talent for that matter. There does seem to be a lot of empty space on the left, however.
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Old May 7 2013, 01:00 AM   #225
trevanian
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Re: How Far Should TOS-R Have Gone?

Maurice wrote: View Post
A good composition directs your gaze. The hand shot has too much detail on one side of the image, what with the hand overlapping the planet, etc., so it becomes clutter and the eye wants to jump off into the negative space to the left.
I just took a look at it and couldn't believe it. I've only seen some slivers of TOS-R and found them falling between abysmal and mediocre, but this just looks like it was put together in a few minutes, maybe somebody's first try with photoshop. Is this the worst of TOS-R?

Don't know how many of you will remember, but during Desert Storm I, TIME had a two-page photo of the oil fields. Bottom third of the frame was soldiers on ground facing away, middle was rocky ground terrain, upper part burning oil wells in distance. Classic composition, right?

Except the shadows didn't match direction and intensity from bottom to middle.

I showed it to everybody I worked with and NO ONE saw anything wrong with the image. Even my stepdad, who has the sort of eye that just finds stuff wrong automatically. It's like by appearing in TIME (or on the cover of LIFE in a different era), it has a stamp of approval that generates blinders or something. Not sure if the same pseudo-standards apply with other media, but I'm kinda wondering now.
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