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Star Trek - Original Series The one that started it all...

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Old May 5 2013, 05:32 AM   #121
ssosmcin
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Re: The Roddenberry Reputation

Maurice wrote: View Post
Noname Given wrote: View Post
The "two pilots was unheard of at the time..." has always been GR BS. BOTH "Gilligan's Island" and "Lost In Space" got second pilot attempts before they finally aired.
Incorrect examples.

Neither is the same as shooting two wholly different pilots.
Also, it wasn't just Roddenberry saying it. This was backed up by Herb Solow. There's also a difference between a series pilot and a "broadcast" pilot. So, no Roddenberry BS there.
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Old May 5 2013, 05:44 AM   #122
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Re: The Roddenberry Reputation

JoeD80 wrote: View Post
ssosmcin wrote: View Post
What people either keep forgetting or ignoring is that Roddenberry himself rewrote a great deal of the scripts in the first two seasons. Harlan Ellison is the most famous example
I'm pretty sure this was covered upthread; Fontana did the final City re-writes.
Yes, the final rewrites, but Roddenberry wrote as well. Ellison didn't know DC Fontana was involved until the 90's. Ellison's beef has always been with Roddenberry over the rewrites and misquoting him in the press.


Black left because of the way he was treated personally. The story is in the Inside Star Trek book.
Nope:

From Memory Alpha: According to Justman and Herb Solow's book, Inside Star Trek: The Real Story, Black didn't get along well with Roddenberry. A week after he finished the script for "The Naked Time", Black discovered that Roddenberry rewrote it, without consulting with him, or even telling him about it. Black was disappointed and never again had the same positive disposition for the series. When he left the show, he celebrated the fact that he no longer worked for Roddenberry. (Inside Star Trek: The Real Story, p 139)

He was doing work for sure; but he was also having sex with actresses. This is also covered in the book.
I know, I'm lame enough to have read the book like a dozen times. I have it in a kind of a regular rotation. I didn't say he wasn't. What I had said was that people keep stating or assuming that all he did was create the concept and sit back and have sex while other did the real work. This was far from the truth.
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Old May 5 2013, 08:18 PM   #123
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Re: The Roddenberry Reputation

Who is stating or even assuming that? By all accounts, Roddenberry worked like a dog on the first two seasons of the series (so did Justman, Coon, and others).
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Old May 5 2013, 08:24 PM   #124
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Re: The Roddenberry Reputation

The entire thread makes me want to jump shouting "Objection, your Honor! Hearsay!"

Is there anything the members of this board can say about Roddenberry that can be stated with absolute certainty?
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Old May 5 2013, 11:21 PM   #125
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Re: The Roddenberry Reputation

JarodRussell wrote: View Post
The entire thread makes me want to jump shouting "Objection, your Honor! Hearsay!"

Is there anything the members of this board can say about Roddenberry that can be stated with absolute certainty?
Loudly agreed. And to get back to the original topic Roddenberry was never a "network executive." No one at Desilu was, though Solow was a former NBC and CBS exec.

This all reminds me of the myriad theories regarding Jack the Ripper, which have taken in various impossible suspects including Lewis Carroll, author of "Alice in Wonderland."
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Old May 5 2013, 11:53 PM   #126
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Re: The Roddenberry Reputation

JarodRussell wrote: View Post
The entire thread makes me want to jump shouting "Objection, your Honor! Hearsay!"

Is there anything the members of this board can say about Roddenberry that can be stated with absolute certainty?
Some fans hunger for any kind of background trivia and tales from people who worked on Trek so it is understandable (but of course not excusable) that they might view them as facts.
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Old May 6 2013, 12:05 AM   #127
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Re: The Roddenberry Reputation

horatio83 wrote: View Post
JarodRussell wrote: View Post
The entire thread makes me want to jump shouting "Objection, your Honor! Hearsay!"

Is there anything the members of this board can say about Roddenberry that can be stated with absolute certainty?
Some fans hunger for any kind of background trivia and tales from people who worked on Trek so it is understandable (but of course not excusable) that they might view them as facts.
The only behind the scenes stuff I typically care about are either production-design (how it goes from concept, to blueprint, to set/model, and the steps in between) and the busines side of the writing office (concept, drafts, the why some ideas that are better get killed for less ideals or vice versa, and how they planned around resources/money when writing). I do care that credit gets put where credit is due, but that's just case I think we can't forget or downplay people contributions at the expense of making one person into a legend. The how and who is fucking who on the cast couch has never been much interest to me.
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Old May 6 2013, 02:43 AM   #128
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Re: The Roddenberry Reputation

JarodRussell wrote: View Post
The entire thread makes me want to jump shouting "Objection, your Honor! Hearsay!"

Is there anything the members of this board can say about Roddenberry that can be stated with absolute certainty?
He was born?
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Old May 6 2013, 03:01 AM   #129
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Re: The Roddenberry Reputation

horatio83 wrote: View Post
As the entire talk about Roddenberry not being a saint is for most fans just a complicated way to say that they don't like his vision I prefer the short version: "I don't like all this unrealistic utopian stuff." It is more to the point.
No.

Oh - Hi, Harvey!
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Old May 6 2013, 03:39 AM   #130
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Re: The Roddenberry Reputation

ssosmcin wrote: View Post
Black left because of the way he was treated personally. The story is in the Inside Star Trek book.
Nope:

From Memory Alpha: According to Justman and Herb Solow's book, Inside Star Trek: The Real Story, Black didn't get along well with Roddenberry. A week after he finished the script for "The Naked Time", Black discovered that Roddenberry rewrote it, without consulting with him, or even telling him about it. Black was disappointed and never again had the same positive disposition for the series. When he left the show, he celebrated the fact that he no longer worked for Roddenberry. (Inside Star Trek: The Real Story, p 139)
Um that summary definitely skips over part of the story that's in the book. It was very definitely personal as well; there's a bit in there on practical jokes played on Black, and how he went from being friendly to always having his office door closed because he didn't want to deal with Roddenberry.
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Old May 6 2013, 04:04 AM   #131
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Re: The Roddenberry Reputation

RandyS wrote: View Post
JarodRussell wrote: View Post
The entire thread makes me want to jump shouting "Objection, your Honor! Hearsay!"

Is there anything the members of this board can say about Roddenberry that can be stated with absolute certainty?
He was born?
You better have some evidence to back that up, Mister.
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Old May 6 2013, 04:57 PM   #132
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Re: The Roddenberry Reputation

JoeD80 wrote: View Post
Um that summary definitely skips over part of the story that's in the book. It was very definitely personal as well; there's a bit in there on practical jokes played on Black, and how he went from being friendly to always having his office door closed because he didn't want to deal with Roddenberry.
Granted, which still doesn't take away from the fact that he was upset at having his work rewritten by Gene and that played a big part in his decision to leave. Which still supports that Roddenberry was doing plenty of writing on the series, which was my only point.
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Old May 6 2013, 05:02 PM   #133
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Re: The Roddenberry Reputation

Harvey wrote: View Post
Who is stating or even assuming that? By all accounts, Roddenberry worked like a dog on the first two seasons of the series (so did Justman, Coon, and others).
It's been dropped or hinted at in this thread and outside this one. That's where I've been noticing the general change to "Roddenberry did nothing but create the series and chase skirts" attitude of some of the people on the BBS.
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Old May 6 2013, 11:39 PM   #134
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Re: The Roddenberry Reputation

Maurice wrote: View Post
Noname Given wrote: View Post
The "two pilots was unheard of at the time..." has always been GR BS. BOTH "Gilligan's Island" and "Lost In Space" got second pilot attempts before they finally aired.
Incorrect examples. Sherwood Schwartz kept resubmitting the Gilligan's Island pilot, and after drastically re-editing it, CBS finally picked it up. Bits of the pilot were cut into the first regular series episode, and the pilot's plot was recycled as the 1st season Christmas episode. Lost in Space has a single pilot, but changes were made for series production (addition of the Robot, Dr. Smith, etc.) and the pilot was chopped up and bits incorporated into various early episodes.

Neither is the same as shooting two wholly different pilots.
Well, yes and no. The fuirst GI pilot was screened to audiences twice - one was the cut the studio wanted and one was the cut SS wanted; and SS's cut tracked better. There was a second pilot commissioned and made (that SS picked up half the tab on - which replaced the character of "Bunny" (a secretary) with "Ginger" (the actress); but two completely seperate pilots were shot, even if some footage of the first was used in the second.)

As for "Lost In Space" - considering the complete change in background (to add "Dr. Smith" as the evil protagonist out to sabotage the mission and kill the Robinsons <--- He was a REALLY great and truly evil character in the first half of the season IMO - very different from the 'bumbling coward' character type he morphed into (at Harris' own request, which probably served him well as to keeping the job in later seasons); the point is, they shot A LOT of new footage and excised the majority of the original footage (used it in bits and pieces of later first season episodes here and there); but my point:

GR was trying to say it was a totally unheard of thing for Networks to essentially give shows where the first pilot failed to 'sell' a show on the first version -- to make it seem as "yes, the Network did see something 'special' in his 'vision'..."; when in fact, while not all that common, it was hardly anything unheard of in the TV business of the day.
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Old May 7 2013, 12:45 AM   #135
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Re: The Roddenberry Reputation

Noname Given wrote: View Post
As for "Lost In Space" - considering the complete change in background (to add "Dr. Smith" as the evil protagonist out to sabotage the mission and kill the Robinsons...
For evil protagonist, read "antagonist."

I agree with a lot of your points, btw. And I like LIS.
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