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The Next Generation All Good Things come to an end...but not here.

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Old May 5 2013, 12:49 AM   #31
Tiberius
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Re: Saucer Separation

Timo wrote: View Post
Indeed - clearly not a weapon, and not of any value in a more conventional fight. Otherwise, Locutus would not have been confused by it!
Not quite.

Locutus wasn't confused.

Picard had been briefed on Shelby's plan to use the saucer as a distraction. So when they did separate, the Borg used Picard's knowledge and said, "Oh, the saucer is just a distraction, and we can safely ignore it, because the stardrive is a bigger threat." Riker was counting on this, which is why Data and Worf's shuttle was launched from the saucer - the Borg were ignoring it, "just as you should, captain." In this sense, it was actually the stardrive that was the distraction, making the Borg think that the Enterprise was trying to damage them or destroy them when the real goal was to kidnap Picard so the Enterprise crew could try to get Picard's knowledge of the Borg in an effort to find a weakness they could exploit.
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Old May 5 2013, 01:01 AM   #32
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Re: Saucer Separation

Tiberius wrote: View Post
Timo wrote: View Post
Indeed - clearly not a weapon, and not of any value in a more conventional fight. Otherwise, Locutus would not have been confused by it!
Not quite.

Locutus wasn't confused.

Picard had been briefed on Shelby's plan to use the saucer as a distraction. So when they did separate, the Borg used Picard's knowledge and said, "Oh, the saucer is just a distraction, and we can safely ignore it, because the stardrive is a bigger threat." Riker was counting on this, which is why Data and Worf's shuttle was launched from the saucer - the Borg were ignoring it, "just as you should, captain." In this sense, it was actually the stardrive that was the distraction, making the Borg think that the Enterprise was trying to damage them or destroy them when the real goal was to kidnap Picard so the Enterprise crew could try to get Picard's knowledge of the Borg in an effort to find a weakness they could exploit.
I like this account, except that therefore Locutus was completely and utterly misdirected.
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Old May 5 2013, 04:50 AM   #33
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Re: Saucer Separation

CorporalCaptain wrote: View Post
Tiberius wrote: View Post
Timo wrote: View Post
Indeed - clearly not a weapon, and not of any value in a more conventional fight. Otherwise, Locutus would not have been confused by it!
Not quite.

Locutus wasn't confused.

Picard had been briefed on Shelby's plan to use the saucer as a distraction. So when they did separate, the Borg used Picard's knowledge and said, "Oh, the saucer is just a distraction, and we can safely ignore it, because the stardrive is a bigger threat." Riker was counting on this, which is why Data and Worf's shuttle was launched from the saucer - the Borg were ignoring it, "just as you should, captain." In this sense, it was actually the stardrive that was the distraction, making the Borg think that the Enterprise was trying to damage them or destroy them when the real goal was to kidnap Picard so the Enterprise crew could try to get Picard's knowledge of the Borg in an effort to find a weakness they could exploit.
I like this account, except that therefore Locutus was completely and utterly misdirected.
Why is that bad? Locutus was misdirected and I think that's cool. If it had been Picard, he probably would have figured it out via intuition/gut feeling. Locutus doesn't have that. Therefore he fails.
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Old May 5 2013, 04:56 AM   #34
CorporalCaptain
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Re: Saucer Separation

Mr_Homn wrote: View Post
CorporalCaptain wrote: View Post
Tiberius wrote: View Post

Not quite.

Locutus wasn't confused.

Picard had been briefed on Shelby's plan to use the saucer as a distraction. So when they did separate, the Borg used Picard's knowledge and said, "Oh, the saucer is just a distraction, and we can safely ignore it, because the stardrive is a bigger threat." Riker was counting on this, which is why Data and Worf's shuttle was launched from the saucer - the Borg were ignoring it, "just as you should, captain." In this sense, it was actually the stardrive that was the distraction, making the Borg think that the Enterprise was trying to damage them or destroy them when the real goal was to kidnap Picard so the Enterprise crew could try to get Picard's knowledge of the Borg in an effort to find a weakness they could exploit.
I like this account, except that therefore Locutus was completely and utterly misdirected.
Why is that bad? Locutus was misdirected and I think that's cool. If it had been Picard, he probably would have figured it out via intuition/gut feeling. Locutus doesn't have that. Therefore he fails.
I never said it was bad. My point was that being misdirected is really something like being confused.
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Old May 5 2013, 08:03 AM   #35
Tiberius
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Re: Saucer Separation

CorporalCaptain wrote: View Post
I like this account, except that therefore Locutus was completely and utterly misdirected.
Not the same as confused.

Mr_Homn wrote: View Post
Why is that bad? Locutus was misdirected and I think that's cool. If it had been Picard, he probably would have figured it out via intuition/gut feeling. Locutus doesn't have that. Therefore he fails.
This isn't quite true. Picard was still alive inside Locutus, experiencing everything that happened, and the Borg were aware of everything that Picard was thinking. If Picard was able to figure it out, then the Borg would have known instantly.
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Old May 5 2013, 08:16 AM   #36
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Re: Saucer Separation

Tiberius wrote: View Post
Not the same as confused.
Didn't say it was.
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Old May 5 2013, 11:33 AM   #37
Timo
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Re: Saucer Separation

Whatever Picard or Locutus knew, the fact of the matter is that he appears confused by the antimatter fireworks.

Probably no such thing was included in the original plan that Picard was aware of. Quite possibly Picard had never even considered the possibility that his ship would be capable of deploying these fireworks - it may be a Shelby-devised procedure. Whatever the specifics, the deployment of the antimatter spread makes Locutus look confused, whereas the saucer separation as such evoked no such body language.

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Old May 5 2013, 11:52 AM   #38
Tiberius
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Re: Saucer Separation

Timo wrote: View Post
Whatever Picard or Locutus knew, the fact of the matter is that he appears confused by the antimatter fireworks.

Probably no such thing was included in the original plan that Picard was aware of. Quite possibly Picard had never even considered the possibility that his ship would be capable of deploying these fireworks - it may be a Shelby-devised procedure. Whatever the specifics, the deployment of the antimatter spread makes Locutus look confused, whereas the saucer separation as such evoked no such body language.

Timo Saloniemi
The Collective, not Picard. Picard wasn't in control of his body at that point, so nothing that he was feeling could have produced an expression of emotion.
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Old May 5 2013, 12:27 PM   #39
Timo
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Re: Saucer Separation

Various Drones do seem to have their own types of body language in VOY - say, Seven of Nine before her separation from the Collective. We don't know of any "loss of body control" in terms of dialogue references - only of a more generic "loss of will".

But okay, the Collective was confused by the antimatter fireworks.

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Old May 5 2013, 05:32 PM   #40
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Re: Saucer Separation

^ Well, TNG and Voyager seemed to have different ideas about the nature of the collective. In TNG the collective was one unified consciousness. In Voyager, it was "billions of voices."

In either case, Locutus reffered to himself as "I," which suggests to me his relationship with the collective is different from your average drone.
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Old May 5 2013, 05:45 PM   #41
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Re: Saucer Separation

Third Nacelle wrote: View Post
^ Well, TNG and Voyager seemed to have different ideas about the nature of the collective. In TNG the collective was one unified consciousness. In Voyager, it was "billions of voices."

In either case, Locutus reffered to himself as "I," which suggests to me his relationship with the collective is different from your average drone.
To take that idea a step further, if Locutus had a run-of-the-mill and fully integrated drone consciousness, then why was it necessary for him to overlook the battles from an area that look exactly like a designated command deck? Why not just plug into an alcove, like every other drone not currently servicing the cube?
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Old May 5 2013, 06:47 PM   #42
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Re: Saucer Separation

Doesn't that argument kind of go both ways? Which is to say, if he's fully integrated then why does it matter whether he's plugged into an alcove?
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Old May 5 2013, 06:51 PM   #43
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Re: Saucer Separation

DonIago wrote: View Post
Doesn't that argument kind of go both ways? Which is to say, if he's fully integrated then why does it matter whether he's plugged into an alcove?
You left out some of what I said.
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Old May 5 2013, 06:58 PM   #44
Timo
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Re: Saucer Separation

One might argue that the very existence of this "command deck" shows that the regular Borg have use for such a facility, and Locutus thus isn't a special case. Then again, the Borg could no doubt erect the "command deck" in three minutes just for use by Locutus, actually proving his very special status within (or adjacent to) the Collective!

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Old May 5 2013, 07:00 PM   #45
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Re: Saucer Separation

No need to roll your eyes, especially since I don't see how the part I left out changes anything. Just because we see Locutus apparently watching the battle doesn't mean anything. It could be they separated him out because he was the spokesperson and the Borg figured it made more sense for him to address Our Heroes standing independently rather than plugged in. Heck, they could have even gotten the idea from Picard.

I'm not really sure where this "command deck" notion is coming from either. Yes there's a big viewscreen thing in the middle(?) of the cube, but any other Borg could see it as easily as Locutus, and otherwise the section of the cube Locutus was in, IMO, looked essentially identical to any other area overlooking that space. Hell, the viewscreen itself seems to be more dramatic license than anything else. Why do the Borg need a viewscreen?
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