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Go Back   The Trek BBS > Star Trek Movies > Star Trek Movies XI+

Star Trek Movies XI+ Discuss J.J. Abrams' rebooted Star Trek here.

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Old May 5 2013, 04:52 AM   #16
CorporalCaptain
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Re: Is everything before the destruction of the kelvin exactly the sam

Kruezerman wrote: View Post
CorporalCaptain wrote: View Post
WarpFactorZ wrote: View Post
You guys are confusing "the same" with "the same production value." As far as I'm concerned, the Kelvin fits in perfects with what 2233 should look like. Of course it doesn't look like a cheesy cardboard "spaceship" set dreamed up in the 1960s. But *that* vision has license to change as technology evolves, so long as the storyline doesn't.
Then, let me elaborate.

Why is it necessary that the "storyline" [sic] remained the same, even while the art design so obviously changed? Additionally, where's the actual evidence that the backstory in fact remained the same? Furthermore, what about the evidence that the backstory in fact changed? Evidence such as a recalibrated warp scale, such as starships built in a manner contrary to the way the TOS writer's guide described, such as Chekov's age, and so forth?

From the opening moments of ST09, when the art design was so obviously different, it should have come as no surprise to anyone that a reboot was actually in progress.
So Enterprise was a reboot as well? Because that looks a HELL of a lot more advanced than TOS.
Given what we saw in In a Mirror, Darkly, not so much. Retcon is more apt than reboot, when it comes to ENT. Besides, the main characters in ENT weren't the TOS characters, now were they?
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Old May 5 2013, 04:55 AM   #17
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Re: Is everything before the destruction of the kelvin exactly the sam

True, but why not take what Spock said in XI at face value and accept the Kelvin design and aesthetic is a retcon as well?
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Old May 5 2013, 04:55 AM   #18
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Re: Is everything before the destruction of the kelvin exactly the sam

Gojira wrote: View Post
Nightowl1701 wrote: View Post
'09 Old Spock is the same Spock we first met in 'The Cage.' What he mistook for mere time travel via Nero's red matter was in fact them crossing universes - from the Prime Universe over to the Abramsverse 150-something years in the past.
+

I agree with you but the movie is as clear as mudd about that. Young Kirk and young Spock et al. sure do think that Old Spock and Nero are from their future. But they're not.
Let's not get carried away here. Spock and Nero time-traveled from their era to their past. The timelines diverged because of their incursion. Whether there are parallel timelines is irrelevant. They can no more travel to "their" proper past than you can travel to the universe in which you turned right when instead you turned left.
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Old May 5 2013, 04:56 AM   #19
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Re: Is everything before the destruction of the kelvin exactly the sam

WarpFactorZ wrote: View Post
Gojira wrote: View Post
Nightowl1701 wrote: View Post
'09 Old Spock is the same Spock we first met in 'The Cage.' What he mistook for mere time travel via Nero's red matter was in fact them crossing universes - from the Prime Universe over to the Abramsverse 150-something years in the past.
+

I agree with you but the movie is as clear as mudd about that. Young Kirk and young Spock et al. sure do think that Old Spock and Nero are from their future. But they're not.
Let's not get carried away here. Spock and Nero time-traveled from their era to their past. The timelines diverged because of their incursion. Whether there are parallel timelines is irrelevant. They can no more travel to "their" proper past than you can travel to the universe in which you turned right when instead you turned left.
This.
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Old May 5 2013, 05:06 AM   #20
CorporalCaptain
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Re: Is everything before the destruction of the kelvin exactly the sam

Kruezerman wrote: View Post
True, but why not take what Spock said in XI at face value and accept the Kelvin design and aesthetic is a retcon as well?
Because, as I said, there are other elements in the film that don't perfectly fit, unless you interpret them as retconning TOS itself. Once that degree of retconning is occurring, it's better described as a reboot. Spock's exposition isn't encountered in the film until after the evidence of a reboot is already water under the bridge.

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Old May 5 2013, 05:16 AM   #21
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Re: Is everything before the destruction of the kelvin exactly the sam

WarpFactorZ wrote: View Post
Gojira wrote: View Post
Nightowl1701 wrote: View Post
'09 Old Spock is the same Spock we first met in 'The Cage.' What he mistook for mere time travel via Nero's red matter was in fact them crossing universes - from the Prime Universe over to the Abramsverse 150-something years in the past.
+

I agree with you but the movie is as clear as mudd about that. Young Kirk and young Spock et al. sure do think that Old Spock and Nero are from their future. But they're not.
Let's not get carried away here. Spock and Nero time-traveled from their era to their past. The timelines diverged because of their incursion. Whether there are parallel timelines is irrelevant. They can no more travel to "their" proper past than you can travel to the universe in which you turned right when instead you turned left.
Actually, "Parallels" established that you can travel into different timelines.
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Old May 5 2013, 05:46 AM   #22
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Re: Is everything before the destruction of the kelvin exactly the sam

CorporalCaptain wrote: View Post
Kruezerman wrote: View Post
True, but why not take what Spock said in XI at face value and accept the Kelvin design and aesthetic is a retcon as well?
Because, as I said, there are other elements in the film that don't perfectly fit, unless you interpret them as retconning TOS itself. Once that degree of retconning is occurring, it's better described as a reboot. Spock's exposition isn't encountered in the film until after the evidence of a reboot is already water under the bridge.

That's not a spoiler, that's speculation. But whether or not that's the case, I'd say the IDW comic ("The Return of the Archons," among other stories) and Star Trek: The Video Game (Everything to do with the Gorn) have already beat STID to the punch on that score. There's no way the things detailed in those two sources happened in any form in the pre-Nero Prime Universe. (And before you start that 'if it's not on screen, it's not canon', screenwriter Roberto Orci oversaw and collaborated on both projects.)

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Old May 5 2013, 05:46 AM   #23
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Re: Is everything before the destruction of the kelvin exactly the sam

From another thread, because it's relevant here:
Christopher wrote:
Let's remember that Roddenberry was glad to completely redesign the Klingons for TMP, and asked fans to accept that they'd really looked that way all along and the makeup on TOS just hadn't been up to depicting it.
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Old May 5 2013, 06:12 AM   #24
Kruezerman
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Re: Is everything before the destruction of the kelvin exactly the sam

CorporalCaptain wrote: View Post
Kruezerman wrote: View Post
True, but why not take what Spock said in XI at face value and accept the Kelvin design and aesthetic is a retcon as well?
Because, as I said, there are other elements in the film that don't perfectly fit, unless you interpret them as retconning TOS itself. Once that degree of retconning is occurring, it's better described as a reboot. Spock's exposition isn't encountered in the film until after the evidence of a reboot is already water under the bridge.

Neither did Enterprise, photonic torpedoes and phase cannons in an era that had supposedly only used nukes and lasers?

Nightowl1701 wrote: View Post
CorporalCaptain wrote: View Post
Kruezerman wrote: View Post
True, but why not take what Spock said in XI at face value and accept the Kelvin design and aesthetic is a retcon as well?
Because, as I said, there are other elements in the film that don't perfectly fit, unless you interpret them as retconning TOS itself. Once that degree of retconning is occurring, it's better described as a reboot. Spock's exposition isn't encountered in the film until after the evidence of a reboot is already water under the bridge.

That's not a spoiler, that's speculation. But whether or not that's the case, I'd say the IDW comic ("The Return of the Archons," among other stories) and Star Trek: The Video Game (Everything to do with the Gorn) have already beat STID to the punch on that score. There's no way the things detailed in those two sources happened in any form in the pre-Nero Prime Universe. (And before you start that 'if it's not on screen, it's not canon', screenwriter Roberto Orci oversaw and collaborated on both projects.)
It happened because it did, remember the...

Set Harth wrote: View Post
From another thread, because it's relevant here:
Christopher wrote:
Let's remember that Roddenberry was glad to completely redesign the Klingons for TMP, and asked fans to accept that they'd really looked that way all along and the makeup on TOS just hadn't been up to depicting it.
Exactly, this has happened before, and nobody complained, and yet the new guy walks in with a new direction and all of a sudden it's INSANITY.
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Old May 5 2013, 06:17 AM   #25
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Re: Is everything before the destruction of the kelvin exactly the sam

Set Harth wrote: View Post
From another thread, because it's relevant here:
Christopher wrote:
Let's remember that Roddenberry was glad to completely redesign the Klingons for TMP, and asked fans to accept that they'd really looked that way all along and the makeup on TOS just hadn't been up to depicting it.
Then Enterprise shot that down. But I suppose you can still apply that logic to other stuff.
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Old May 5 2013, 06:23 AM   #26
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Re: Is everything before the destruction of the kelvin exactly the sam

Maybe you folks can help explain how Judi Dench managed to be M (different M.s at that, though both are pretty incompetent) in both the Brosnan seasoned-Bond universe and the Craig-protoBond-even-though-he-is-too-short-and-ugly-Bond universe.

If the KELVIN is supposed to represent real universe early 23rd cent tech, must be pre-transtator, because everything is way too big and bulky and contemporary ... of course you could make same claim about all Abrams belowdeck stuff.
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Old May 5 2013, 06:29 AM   #27
CorporalCaptain
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Re: Is everything before the destruction of the kelvin exactly the sam

Nightowl1701 wrote: View Post
That's not a spoiler, that's speculation.
It's (fairly obviously) informed from having read spoilers, so I put it in spoiler tags as a courtesy.
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Old May 5 2013, 08:18 AM   #28
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Re: Is everything before the destruction of the kelvin exactly the sam

nuTrek is set in the Enterprise timeline that had been created in First Contact, at least in my personal canon. How Spock got his hands on this Transwarp Beaming formula is another thing, though.
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Old May 5 2013, 08:59 AM   #29
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Re: Is everything before the destruction of the kelvin exactly the sam

Oso Blanco wrote: View Post
nuTrek is set in the Enterprise timeline that had been created in First Contact, at least in my personal continuity. How Spock got his hands on this Transwarp Beaming formula is another thing, though.
FTFY.
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Old May 5 2013, 09:28 AM   #30
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Re: Is everything before the destruction of the kelvin exactly the sam

Eh, I pretty much considered the Abramverse an alternate one before Nero and Spock entered into it. All the Federation ships were bigger for example and their weaponry was different. And somehow I doubt Kirk growing up with daddy issues caused the Federation to vastly change ship designs, build the Enterprise in Iowa as opposed to San Fransisco Shipyard, different uniforms and another things.

Similar? Sure. But definitely different. Besides, it makes it easier for Abrams not having to keep up with any sort of continuity beyond his own work.
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