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Old May 2 2013, 05:05 AM   #16
Santa Kang
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Re: What happened to the "Commodore" Rank?

Hartzilla2007 wrote: View Post
bullethead wrote: View Post
They probably retired it after seeing a bunch of them do crazy/dumb things in Kirk's time as captain.
Under than logic they should retire the Admiral Ranks as well
And Captain.
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Old May 2 2013, 07:29 AM   #17
Timo
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Re: What happened to the "Commodore" Rank?

Statistically, we have no particular reason to think that the use of Commodore in Starfleet would have been discontinued. We last heard of one in ST:TMP, after which we have seen up close about a dozen Vice Admirals and just a couple of full, four-pip Admirals in the regular timeline, plus just three two-pip Rear Admirals. In addition to these, there have been unclear cases: lots of background flag officers in the other TOS movies (with very difficult-to-identify pins; many don't even realize Kirk is supposed to be a Rear Admiral), and then these folks in early TNG who wear either zero, one or two pips.

A single-pip Commodore could easily have slipped through the cracks. Or we could have seen several in focus in early TNG, and it's just customary to address all flag ranks as "Admiral" even when some are Commodores and others are Vice Admirals.

Similarly, we have no real statistical reason to think that Lt(jg) or LtCmdr would have been omitted from UESF ranks in ENT, even though we never saw anybody wear those particular rank pins...

It's a bit more complicated with Lt(jg) in ST:TMP, because we did hear not one but two of the heroes address a dashed-braid person as "Ensign" despite said braid that matches that of Lt(jg) Joe Tormolen from TOS. Of course, we could argue that our heroes were out of the loop and unaccustomed to the promotions these people otherwise familiar to them had recently received... But it doesn't seem as if Kirk really knows the "Ensign" he stops at the corridor to ask for directions.

As for Fleet Captain, this title is only used once in all of Star Trek, for Chris Pike's immediate pre-TOS status - so if it ever were a rank, it may have disappeared before TOS already. It might also simply be the very same thing as Captain, though (the "Fleet" thing differentiating the likes of Pike and Kirk from the likes of Mudd and Yates).

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Old May 2 2013, 03:34 PM   #18
J.T.B.
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Re: What happened to the "Commodore" Rank?

The Wormhole wrote: View Post
In real life, the US Navy phased out Commodore in the 1980s and replaced it with Rear Admiral, Lower Half. Therefore it was decided in Star Trek that Starfleet would eliminate the rank as well.
There was no commodore rank in the US Navy when TOS was made, either.
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Old May 4 2013, 08:32 AM   #19
Danger Ace
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Re: What happened to the "Commodore" Rank?

C.E. Evans wrote: View Post
But during TOS, we did see a lieutenant j.g. Joe Tormolen with one broken stripe on his sleeves.
http://tos.trekcore.com/hd/albums/1x...timehd0230.jpg
It was also referenced in the original "Star Fleet Technical Manual" published around '75.

Correction: Dagnabbit, had to go dig up my copy ... folks below are correct it was not in the Tech Manual, but bygosh, I seem to recall seeing an illustration of the junior grade/second Lt. somewhere. Maybe a fanzine back in the day? I did find this blurb at Memory Alpha.
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Old May 4 2013, 09:12 AM   #20
C.E. Evans
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Re: What happened to the "Commodore" Rank?

Danger Ace wrote: View Post
C.E. Evans wrote: View Post
But during TOS, we did see a lieutenant j.g. Joe Tormolen with one broken stripe on his sleeves.
http://tos.trekcore.com/hd/albums/1x...timehd0230.jpg
It was also referenced in the original "Star Fleet Technical Manual" published around '75.
A number of ranks from the various shows and movies--including those that have never actually appeared onscreen--appear in various reference books.
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Old May 4 2013, 03:02 PM   #21
Cookies and Cake
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Re: What happened to the "Commodore" Rank?

Danger Ace wrote: View Post
C.E. Evans wrote: View Post
But during TOS, we did see a lieutenant j.g. Joe Tormolen with one broken stripe on his sleeves.
http://tos.trekcore.com/hd/albums/1x...timehd0230.jpg
It was also referenced in the original "Star Fleet Technical Manual" published around '75.
No, lieutenant (junior grade) was definitely not referenced in the original Star Fleet Technical Manual. I have my first edition copy "Stardate 7511.01" right here.
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Old May 4 2013, 04:09 PM   #22
J.T.B.
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Re: What happened to the "Commodore" Rank?

CorporalCaptain wrote: View Post
No, lieutenant (junior grade) was definitely not referenced in the original Star Fleet Technical Manual. I have my first edition copy "Stardate 7511.01" right here.
Right, and the commodore stripes in the TM were not like what was seen on the show.
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Old May 4 2013, 04:54 PM   #23
Timo
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Re: What happened to the "Commodore" Rank?

Just for fun, here's another potential Lt(j.g.), from "The Cage"...

http://tos.trekcore.com/hd/albums/1x...cagehd0076.jpg

Yeah, yeah, a different rank indicator system... Perhaps. Perhaps not.

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Old May 4 2013, 05:03 PM   #24
Mysterion
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Re: What happened to the "Commodore" Rank?

^^^^
FWIW, Memory Alpha says that insignia is for a Chief Petty Officer: http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/File:Cage_chief.png

And they idenitify that fellow in the picture as CPO Garison: http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/Garison
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Old May 4 2013, 08:28 PM   #25
Timo
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Re: What happened to the "Commodore" Rank?

...But the episode itself doesn't identify the character or his rank. Except perhaps in the end credits, but those aren't part of the Star Trek universe (and we don't really have to think that Kirk was in every episode replaced by an impostor named William Shatner, or that Uhura in fact spelled her name with three u's).

I mean, yeah, writer intention and all that. But we have now seen samples of Starfleet insignia from before and after the TOS pilots, and the system seems unchanged and continuous. Which rather supports the idea that this guy here was a Lt(jg), that Kirk in "Where No Man" was a Commander by rank, and that young Pike, doing a milk run with half a crew, was a mere Lt.

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