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Voyager There's coffee in this forum!

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Old May 4 2013, 02:18 PM   #331
Guy Gardener
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Re: When did voyager go wrong?

(Good Morning Brit.)

Actually we didn't.

There was no mention that the Borg were from the Delta Quadrant until First Contact, which is most likely after the Borg Costumes had already been earmarked for the Voyager Wardrobe department already.
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Old May 4 2013, 02:31 PM   #332
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Re: When did voyager go wrong?

But we know they were very very very far away in uncharted space. And FC is TNG, as in a TNG movie.

And if there was no Borg in VOY people would be listing that as one thing that VOY went wrong with.
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Old May 4 2013, 03:30 PM   #333
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Re: When did voyager go wrong?

Guy Gardener wrote: View Post
Actually we didn't.

There was no mention that the Borg were from the Delta Quadrant until First Contact...
The first reference that the Borg came from the Delta Quadrant was on a very visible screen display in the seventh season premiere of TNG.
http://tng.trekcore.com/gallery/albu...parttwo010.jpg

First Contact maintained continuity from that.
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Old May 4 2013, 05:06 PM   #334
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Re: When did voyager go wrong?

About the Borg on VOY:

I get annoyed every time someone says there was "too much Borg". In my opinion, TNG used it, a few movies used it, many novels used it. The Borg got used pretty much everywhere except DS9 and TOS.

After watching 90% of DS9 (which I love, I'm on Season 7 now!)...the Dominion were a threat spanning multiple seasons and were shown constantly. I am so sick of them at this point that I just wish the Federation would blow them to bits NOW.

I can honestly say I did not "get sick of" the Borg on Voyager. How can you when you have characters aboard the ship who used to be Borg who you've grown to care about? And the Borg, out of any of the "antagonists" including the Dominion were probably the biggest threat in Star Trek...ever. So the fact that they were the main "bad guys" in Voyager made Janeway blowing those suckers to pieces even more satisfying. Even though she did not destroy the entire Borg collective, killing that queen was an awesome scene.

The Borg also represented the taking away and removing of individuality...not caring what happens to specific cultures or individuals and only caring about growing larger in numbers and creating more drones. I can't think of any other threat that great. Even the Dominion in DS9 left people as individuals, even though they weren't the most likable or understanding beings. They didn't turn people into lifeless drones.
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Old May 4 2013, 05:24 PM   #335
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Re: When did voyager go wrong?

Sorry to say, I am in the camp there was too much Borg in Voyager. Two things in regards to that. One, the Borg were presented very differently in Voyager as opposed to TNG. In TNG they would actively analyze and adapt as Riker put it, to maintain a high level of threat. In Voyager they couldn't blow their nose unless they assimilated someone who knew how to. Not to mention there's only so many times they can show up and lose before they start to seem less of a credible threat. In the later half of Voyager, season 4 and on... they were a regular element for better and worse. They were in perhaps half a dozen TNG episodes through their whole run(and only one movie... and they were briefly in DS9's pilot)... Voyager averaged that many a season.

Then there's the nonsense that's the Borg Queen. To be fair TNG has to share the blame on that one too since they introduced her in First Contact. Once she came into the scene the Borg stopped being this alien, scary collective force... and just became another disgruntled bad guy of the week, not much different from say... Culluh. The concept of the Collective was they were supposed to be infallable, a collective mind working as one, all their strengths contributing to the whole, so it's hard to beat them or for them to make a mistake. With the Queen... now you just have an emo girl with serious rage issues who's a parody at times... just look at how insane she was in Unimatrix zero for example. Blowing up a ship of thousands to eliminate one rebel drone? May as well drop an H-bomb on New York to eliminate one terrorist.

Plus, the more a villain appears, the more watered down they get so the heroes can beat them. The first time the Borg appear they beat the Federation flagship without breaking a sweat, then they take out a whole fleet and nearly destroy Earth. As Voyager progresses, they routinely engage Cubes with little consequence or damage. Heck, there was one episode where they engaged a supercube briefly and -it- had to stop for repairs after a brief exchange of fire. And by endgame, Voyager's blasting them down like they turned godmode on in a video game. DS9 wasn't free of this either, though it wasn't quite extreme. When the Jem'Hadar were first introduced they took out a Galaxy class starship... by season 7, a runabout could take out one of them. And if you're sick of the Dominion and want them to be blown to bits... well in season 7 you may just like the... extreme measures... the Federation takes.
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Old May 4 2013, 05:40 PM   #336
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Re: When did voyager go wrong?

Precisely. Pre-FC the Borg were just cyborgs and not that scary to look at. With FC and their redesign and the focus on assimilation came along this Cronenberg-like body horror stuff. Their true horror in TNG was the annihilation of individuality and the stories always dealt with this topic. "I, Borg" basically stated that the Borg as mere creatures are fine, the problem is their collectivistic ideology.
All that stuff in VOY about Seven and later the Borg children, regaining their individuality and so on, was said so much more poignantly via Locutus.
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Old May 4 2013, 05:47 PM   #337
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Re: When did voyager go wrong?

For me, the weakening of the Borg began with TNG's "I, Borg" and "Descent". The seeds were there even with BOBW Part 2, once a way was found to attack them from within.
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Old May 4 2013, 05:54 PM   #338
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Re: When did voyager go wrong?

Well I, Borg really did touch upon the loss and regaining of individuality. Their plan to upload a picture that would drive them nuts was sketchy at best, and I don't think it would even work.


As for Decent... well that was a goofy episode to say the least. It wasn't even about the Borg so much as about Data and Lore. I don't see why Hugh's reassimilation would have any lasting effect. Don't they assimilate individuals regularly anyways? So I'm inclined to think Lore just somehow hacked that funkified ship so he could control those drones. Though even then the ship was way more powerful than the Enterprise and it took outsmarting them by luring them into a sunblast to beat them.
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Old May 4 2013, 07:45 PM   #339
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Re: When did voyager go wrong?

teacake wrote: View Post
OMG Brit. I feel like I have missed out on something totally awesome. I should have spent the 2000's building up a fan following and then "died" and then watched my mystique rise. The really sad thing is I'm not even kidding.
Yes you did LOL. I came into the J/C fandom in 2003 just in time for the last major kerfuffle. It was very impressive.

Have you heard of MsScribe, and the problems she caused in the Harry Potter fandom? This Voyager one was just as awesome but I don’t have IP addresses and such. The only thing I figure is that I can use it in an original book.
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Old May 4 2013, 08:32 PM   #340
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Re: When did voyager go wrong?

I wasn't meaning too much Borg, I was annoyed that the Borg was Voyagers "big Bad" instead of an ordinary little "Bad". What if the Dominion hadn't worked out, if Ira had no faith in himself, that he would scrap everything to take the easy Borg ratings... And then what would Voyager do down the line? Borg up as well? And what about Enterprise? It's not like they would consent to ratings pressure and junk their temporal coldwar or Future Guy?

Nice snap shot C.E..

I'm watching Decent Now.

"euuuugh".

They didn't know what a transwarp conduit was before this episode started, but they were able to "extrapolate" where Lore's ship came from, which turned out to only be a short jaunt of 65 light years which would have gotten them no where near the Delta Quadrant.

The extrapolation as wrong.

Lore's base of operations was only 3 weeks away from federation space at cruising speed, if we take Voyager's one thousand light years = one year as wrote. But Riker described that it would take star fleet a few days to rescue them once Beverly abandoned them.

Q threw Enterprise a year and a half away in Q Who, but then distance isn't really a problem for the Borg is it?
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Old May 4 2013, 08:45 PM   #341
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Re: When did voyager go wrong?

For the Borg in Voyager's stories, distance is covered almost as easily as Q's fingersnaps. Or the Teacake Handwave Hypothesis.
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Old May 5 2013, 12:19 AM   #342
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Re: When did voyager go wrong?

Brit wrote: View Post
teacake wrote: View Post
OMG Brit. I feel like I have missed out on something totally awesome. I should have spent the 2000's building up a fan following and then "died" and then watched my mystique rise. The really sad thing is I'm not even kidding.
Yes you did LOL. I came into the J/C fandom in 2003 just in time for the last major kerfuffle. It was very impressive.

Have you heard of MsScribe, and the problems she caused in the Harry Potter fandom? This Voyager one was just as awesome but I don’t have IP addresses and such. The only thing I figure is that I can use it in an original book.
No haven't heard of it, got a link to a synopsis?
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Old May 5 2013, 01:35 AM   #343
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Re: When did voyager go wrong?

teacake wrote: View Post
Brit wrote: View Post
teacake wrote: View Post
OMG Brit. I feel like I have missed out on something totally awesome. I should have spent the 2000's building up a fan following and then "died" and then watched my mystique rise. The really sad thing is I'm not even kidding.
Yes you did LOL. I came into the J/C fandom in 2003 just in time for the last major kerfuffle. It was very impressive.

Have you heard of MsScribe, and the problems she caused in the Harry Potter fandom? This Voyager one was just as awesome but I don’t have IP addresses and such. The only thing I figure is that I can use it in an original book.
No haven't heard of it, got a link to a synopsis?
Yes, I do. Here is the whole story, kind of a detective story too lol.

http://www.journalfen.net/community/bad_penny/1074.html

Her use of sock puppets is awesome lol. All in the pursuit of being the "Big Name Fan" in Harry Potter. Incidentally the BNF of that fandom was Cassandra Claire, who is now known as Cassie Claire. She writes young adult novels. You can check this on Amazon.

I do have some screen prints of something kind of strange. On March 21, 2003. One of Msscribe's sock puppets posted the following.

Many of you do not know this, although she is very open about it but msscribe began writing Harry Potter FanFiction after a bad car accident resulted in her suffering a traumatic head injury, and her therapist told her to try writing in order to help her in her rehabilitation.
Well that kind of made the little hairs on the back of my neck stand up because I remembered this from a new member's introduction on one of the Voyager forums.

April 9, 2004
I was in a severe car accident that summer. The Corvette convertible that I was driving was wedged in between an ambulance and a huge furniture delivery truck. The accident was caused by a carload of kids on drugs being chased by the police.
What she hadn't said there was something she had said in an earlier post, that her therapist told her to write as a part of her rehabilitation.

See I could write a book (lol I should say I am writing a book lol.)
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Old May 11 2013, 07:18 AM   #344
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Re: When did voyager go wrong?

R. Star wrote: View Post
As for Decent... well that was a goofy episode to say the least. It wasn't even about the Borg so much as about Data and Lore. I don't see why Hugh's reassimilation would have any lasting effect. Don't they assimilate individuals regularly anyways? So I'm inclined to think Lore just somehow hacked that funkified ship so he could control those drones.
Back then, the idea was that there were 2 different types of Borg. "Born" Borg who were never individual and were "Born" into the Collective (the Borg babies we saw in Q Who?) and the assimilated ones.

Hugh and his group were meant to be "Born" Borg who had never been individuals and that was why Hugh was so easily de-assimilated just by being tossed around in a ship crash. That's why his newfound individuality had such an effect on his group.

Though even then the ship was way more powerful than the Enterprise and it took outsmarting them by luring them into a sunblast to beat them.
And guess what? If Voyager had done the same thing or something similar to destroy a Borg Cube folks would be up in arms over how that shouldn't have scratched a Borg ship.

Hell, if they'd done that to destroy the Probe ship in "Dark Frontier" then there'd be uproars over how the Sun shouldn't have been enough to damage a PROBE ship.
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Old May 11 2013, 08:32 AM   #345
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Re: When did voyager go wrong?

I had to watch Decent to fight someone the other day, and my comment on that Ensign figuring out how to cause a solar flare to take out an opposing ship is "duh" because surely provoking solar flares is easy and something soldiers have been using to take out planets for hundreds of years? The Klingons seemed like the entire process han't been invented 4 years earlier by some punk kid.

Methinks that it's forbidden technology for moral reasons, everyone in the AQ signed a treaty not to use suns as weapons that it's just rediscovered forgotten tech.
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