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Old May 4 2013, 02:51 PM   #76
farmkid
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Re: 5 year old given rifle as gift, kills 2 year old sister

JarodRussell wrote: View Post
BUT the main difference is: cars are tools for transportation. Guns are tools for killing. Nothing else. Of course you can use a car as a weapon as well, but you can't use a gun in any other useful way than to threaten and to kill other beings. And there's no single valid reason why a civilian needs such a tool.
WRONG. I see this argument all the time and it really annoys me because it is absolutely wrong. Guns can be used to kill people, sure, but that is not their only purpose by any means. They are primarily a recreational object but they can also be used for killing. I and many people I know have done a lot of shooting. Some have used guns for hunting, but that was a tiny fraction of what they have used them for. The rest have been 100% recreation. None have used them for killing. Guns are a recreation object and self-defense tool that can be used for killing. Knives are a cutting tool that can be used for killing. Cars are a transportation object that can be used for killing. Hammers are a tool that can be used for killing. And so on and so on (ropes, candlesticks, lead pipes, wrench, etc.)....
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Old May 4 2013, 03:24 PM   #77
JarodRussell
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Re: 5 year old given rifle as gift, kills 2 year old sister

Right, the purpose of weapons is recreation.
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Old May 4 2013, 05:17 PM   #78
Timelord Victorious
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Re: 5 year old given rifle as gift, kills 2 year old sister

I`m pretty sure you can create sports gear that emulate any recreational effect a gun might have 100% without being lethal...
So why not use those?
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Old May 4 2013, 05:20 PM   #79
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Re: 5 year old given rifle as gift, kills 2 year old sister

JarodRussell wrote: View Post
. . . if cars were to be invented today in our current mindset, they wouldn't make it on the streets. Everyone would look at the risks and tell you how insane it was to let everyone at the age of 16, 18 or 21 drive vehicles that weigh at least two tons, can move as fast as average 240 km/h and carry explosive fuel. And they would be right.
I do hope you don't mean that seriously.
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Old May 4 2013, 05:45 PM   #80
JarodRussell
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Re: 5 year old given rifle as gift, kills 2 year old sister

scotpens wrote: View Post
JarodRussell wrote: View Post
. . . if cars were to be invented today in our current mindset, they wouldn't make it on the streets. Everyone would look at the risks and tell you how insane it was to let everyone at the age of 16, 18 or 21 drive vehicles that weigh at least two tons, can move as fast as average 240 km/h and carry explosive fuel. And they would be right.
I do hope you don't mean that seriously.
Every 13 minutes someone dies in a traffic accident. Over forty thousand deaths and over two million injuries a year. Over 6 million accidents that amount to over 230 BILLION dollars of damages. And that's just the statistics for the United States.

If you presented these statistics to a world where cars haven't been invented yet, nobody would ever allow them. We are only allowed to drive cars because it was an EXTREMELY slow development from only a handful of cars that couldn't go faster than 10 mph to a world where there's almost more cars than people and each car can go up to 180 mph. It's normal now because we are totally used to the fact that THOUSANDS of people die from car related accidents. Actually, it's pretty horrifying that we allow such a thing to happen to ourselves. If you get hit and killed by a car tomorrow, it's like "Yeah, tragic, but it happens, move on."

Much, much worse with firearms. When a school class gets massacred, the NRA is like "Yeah, necessary evil for freedom, tragic, happens, more weapons would have prevented it, move on."
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Old May 4 2013, 06:01 PM   #81
Hound of UIster
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Re: 5 year old given rifle as gift, kills 2 year old sister

scotpens wrote: View Post
The first time I ever fired a gun was at Boy Scout camp when I was 12 years old. That was the age at which you graduated from air rifles (BB guns) to real firearms for target shooting, and it seems a reasonable age to me. But giving a gun to a five-year-old? That's just sheer lunacy.
Apparently it's a cultural practice in Kentucky. No surprise.
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Old May 4 2013, 06:57 PM   #82
horatio83
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Re: 5 year old given rifle as gift, kills 2 year old sister

JarodRussell wrote: View Post
scotpens wrote: View Post
JarodRussell wrote: View Post
. . . if cars were to be invented today in our current mindset, they wouldn't make it on the streets. Everyone would look at the risks and tell you how insane it was to let everyone at the age of 16, 18 or 21 drive vehicles that weigh at least two tons, can move as fast as average 240 km/h and carry explosive fuel. And they would be right.
I do hope you don't mean that seriously.
Every 13 minutes someone dies in a traffic accident. Over forty thousand deaths and over two million injuries a year. Over 6 million accidents that amount to over 230 BILLION dollars of damages. And that's just the statistics for the United States.

If you presented these statistics to a world where cars haven't been invented yet, nobody would ever allow them. We are only allowed to drive cars because it was an EXTREMELY slow development from only a handful of cars that couldn't go faster than 10 mph to a world where there's almost more cars than people and each car can go up to 180 mph. It's normal now because we are totally used to the fact that THOUSANDS of people die from car related accidents. Actually, it's pretty horrifying that we allow such a thing to happen to ourselves. If you get hit and killed by a car tomorrow, it's like "Yeah, tragic, but it happens, move on."

Much, much worse with firearms. When a school class gets massacred, the NRA is like "Yeah, necessary evil for freedom, tragic, happens, more weapons would have prevented it, move on."
Of course cars are dubious transport vehicles. Moving yourself via moving a ton of other stuff at the same time can hardly be the most efficient piece of transportation technology. But there is nothing better yet and just because there are many traffic accidents doesn't mean that a world without combustion engines would be better. A world without the mobility created by them would be much poorer.
If you ban guns the world won't collapse. If you banned cars it actually would.
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Old May 4 2013, 09:10 PM   #83
publiusr
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Re: 5 year old given rifle as gift, kills 2 year old sister

Guns give people the illusion that folks control their own lives. Before Pres. Obama said it, Libertarian talk host Neil Boortz talked about people clinging to guns and religion.

These folks don't understand that the people robbing them aren't going to sneak into their homes late at night, but their scuzzball employers not paying them enough.

Like direct democracy, Guns and Abortion are about the politics of personal control.
Like the NRA, the NOW get's called a killer of children and babes, the bloody flag is raised, and people demonize each other.

The libertarians--always the voice of the serpent--say we wont tell you what kind of gun this, or what kind of proceedure that, as long as you don't impose regulations on big business the other.

No deal.

Bloomberg--he went after guns, drink sizes, hiding cigarettes--and worse, wants to force women away from formula--and wants to deny pain med in the emergency room? Yet his buds on Wall Street? He didn't touch them.

What we need is the anti-Bloomberg. The morning-after pill going over the counter and 3D printed guns make those other issues moot. The libertarians say he who governs least governs best.

I agree--much easier to watch over the 1% instead of extensive regs on everyone else that just ends up in polorized screaming matches.

Better jobs means less violence and lower unplanned pregnancies--that needs to be the focus. Keep up the Bloomberg anti-gun thing--and its red meat for talk radio types who want to gut any kind of regulation at all.

For the nerxt 20 years, the DNC should focus on one thing only--wages. That is what kept pro-Gun Dem Jon Testor in DC. Stay on that message--no distractions on prohibitions against inanimate objects or substances.

Frankly, the only real time the GOP will support gun control is if the next massacre is in Wall Street. Occupy types were pretty weak compared to these guys:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harlan_County,_USA

when the strike breakers and others hired by the company show up early in the film — the strikers call them "gun thugs" — the company people try to keep their guns hidden from the camera...

Later in the movie, the strikers block a road/rail crossing with high powered rifles and the goons backed down.


I think this will happen, with folks pushing the mask wearing anonymous types out of the way--going by such names as John Doe, saying "this isn't Littleton, or Columbine or Sandy Hook...this is Harper's Ferry, and I'm John Brown."

When it is the New York stock exchange that gets shot up to the cheers of the masses--that will be when the GOP supports gun control. Kids apparently don't count. We saw that when head start and meals on wheels got the axe but the suits on first class jets didn't.
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Old May 4 2013, 10:17 PM   #84
Alidar Jarok
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Re: 5 year old given rifle as gift, kills 2 year old sister

Hound of UIster wrote: View Post
scotpens wrote: View Post
The first time I ever fired a gun was at Boy Scout camp when I was 12 years old. That was the age at which you graduated from air rifles (BB guns) to real firearms for target shooting, and it seems a reasonable age to me. But giving a gun to a five-year-old? That's just sheer lunacy.
Apparently it's a cultural practice in Kentucky. No surprise.
Well, this native Pennsylvania fired a .22 rifle at exactly the same age. I did it under supervision in a controlled setting.
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Old May 4 2013, 10:45 PM   #85
iguana_tonante
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Re: 5 year old given rifle as gift, kills 2 year old sister

farmkid wrote: View Post
iguana_tonante wrote: View Post
Yep, that's right.

A 5-year old kid shoots his sister because his gun nuts parents gave him a fucking functional rifle as a birthday present, and the problem is parents who don't have guns.

Right.
That's not what I said; please don't put words in my mouth. If you bothered to read my first post it the thread you would find that I put the blame solely at the feet of the parents in this situation.
This is what you wrote:

farmkid wrote: View Post
I don't have to cower in fear over the possibility they find a gun at a friend's house or somewhere else and end up killing someone. I only have to worry that their friends might not have the same skills and training if their friends' parents are scared of guns.
So, by your own words, the main problem is not that there are 9 guns every 10 people in the US (including toddlers), or that it is considered somehow normal to give 5-year old kids a functional rifle. The problem is parents who don't own gun (or, as you so deftly put it "are scared of guns" and "cower in fears" of weapons) because they won't train their kids like they are some kind of baby militia. And again, this is the only proper answer to that.

Especially in light on this gem:

farmkid wrote: View Post
Guns can be used to kill people, sure, but that is not their only purpose by any means. They are primarily a recreational object but they can also be used for killing. Guns are a recreation object and self-defense tool that can be used for killing.
No, now that I think of it, this is a better answer to that.
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Old May 4 2013, 11:07 PM   #86
Gaith
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Re: 5 year old given rifle as gift, kills 2 year old sister

JarodRussell wrote: View Post
Guns are tools for killing. Nothing else. Of course you can use a car as a weapon as well, but you can't use a gun in any other useful way than to threaten and to kill other beings. And there's no single valid reason why a civilian needs such a tool.
To be fair, a guy I know did hunt down and shoot three chickens in his town for a large Christmas dinner he was planning. And then the Safeway employees explained to him that the chickens were already dead, and to stay the hell away from their store, forever.
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Old May 4 2013, 11:28 PM   #87
1001001
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Re: 5 year old given rifle as gift, kills 2 year old sister

I guess I don't have anything new to add, other than to say:

Giving a 5 year old access to a loaded gun is the stupidest fucking thing I've ever heard.
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Old May 4 2013, 11:46 PM   #88
Gil T.Azell
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Re: 5 year old given rifle as gift, kills 2 year old sister

1001001 wrote: View Post
I guess I don't have anything new to add, other than to say:

Giving a 5 year old access to a loaded gun is the stupidest fucking thing I've ever heard.


And we are are guilty of it at one time or another.

May that little one R.I.P. for ever an ANGEL.
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Old May 5 2013, 12:39 AM   #89
gturner
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Re: 5 year old given rifle as gift, kills 2 year old sister

1001001 wrote: View Post
I guess I don't have anything new to add, other than to say:

Giving a 5 year old access to a loaded gun is the stupidest fucking thing I've ever heard.
What about putting a 5-year old in a car with a drunk driver? That happens all the time, killing over 200 children below the age of 14 every year.

About every three weeks a child is killed by a television, ironically a device often used by children to watch a coyote try to kill a roadrunner by dropping something on him. Does a big screen television serve any useful purpose?

Then the kids go out to the playground instead of rabbit hunting, and every year 200,000 of them end up going from the playground to the ER at a cost of $1.2 billion a year, and one dies from such playground injuries every few weeks.

On an average day two children drown, yet parents still expose their children to the hazards of water, even teaching some of them to swim in it. (Those parents should be prosecuted for gross negligence in willfully exposing their children to such a dangerous environment.)

Two children also die daily from poisoning, yet we still keep dangerous chemicals and drugs in our homes, knowing that for every child who dies from poisoning, 150 are saved at the hospital.

Two children die daily from burns, usually scalding because we insist on boiling water to cook things even though prepackaged meals make such ridiculously dangerous methods of food preparation unnecessary. Any parent with a stove should go to jail.

2.6 million children end up in the ER for sports injuries, yet kicking a ball serves no useful purpose. We need to stop that.

Taking in all the other hazards found in the environments where we willfully expose our kids, it's not surprising that about 9,000 of them die annually from injuries. That's more than all the US forces killed in Iraq from 2003 until the withdrawal, and this is happening every year to our young children.

Anyway, in a strange twist, American parents' substitution of televisions for guns has created children who psychologists rank as the slowest in the world to realize that animals are not little furry people. That might go a way in explaining why 800,000 ER visits a year are from dog bites, which kill over a dozen children every year.
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Old May 5 2013, 01:04 AM   #90
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Re: 5 year old given rifle as gift, kills 2 year old sister

gturner wrote: View Post
What about putting a 5-year old in a car with a drunk driver? That happens all the time, killing over 200 children below the age of 14 every year.
Your brain is the beneficiary of millions of years of evolution, millenniums of human history, and the proverbial village that raised you, and you see fit to expend that gift on "arguments" such as this?
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