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Star Trek - Original Series The one that started it all...

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Old May 4 2013, 03:49 AM   #106
Harvey
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Re: The Roddenberry Reputation

horatio83 wrote: View Post
As the entire talk about Roddenberry not being a saint is for most fans just a complicated way to say that they don't like his vision I prefer the short version: "I don't like all this unrealistic utopian stuff." It is more to the point.
To pull a Dennis, no.
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Old May 4 2013, 03:56 AM   #107
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Re: The Roddenberry Reputation

horatio83 wrote: View Post
As the entire talk about Roddenberry not being a saint is for most fans just a complicated way to say that they don't like his vision I prefer the short version: "I don't like all this unrealistic utopian stuff." It is more to the point.
Nah, its because he did stuff in his private and business life that those fans don't approve of. Disliking elements from his creative life comes from a different place.
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Old May 4 2013, 04:04 AM   #108
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Re: The Roddenberry Reputation

All of the people I encountered in this thread who preached about Roddenberry the immoral sinner also complained about Trek being too preachy. So yeah, definitely some correlation and a lovely form of doublethink.
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Old May 4 2013, 04:50 AM   #109
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Re: The Roddenberry Reputation

horatio83 wrote: View Post
All of the people I encountered in this thread who preached about Roddenberry the immoral sinner also complained about Trek being too preachy. So yeah, definitely some correlation and a lovely form of doublethink.
In this thread or elsewhere?
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Old May 4 2013, 11:49 AM   #110
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Re: The Roddenberry Reputation

Nerys Myk wrote: View Post
horatio83 wrote: View Post
All of the people I encountered in this thread who preached about Roddenberry the immoral sinner also complained about Trek being too preachy. So yeah, definitely some correlation and a lovely form of doublethink.
In this thread or elsewhere?
I'm curious as well. Because I've never complained about Trek being "too preachy".
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Old May 4 2013, 03:15 PM   #111
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Re: The Roddenberry Reputation

I think it's entirely possible to appreciate someone's works while not actually liking the someone that created them. Not just in this case but in general with many artists. I listen to alot of music and watch tv shows, but I wouldn't want anything to do with many of them. Many of them are substance abusers and I really wouldn't like to be around that, for example.

For myself as well, I many times try not to find out about some people's private lives as I usually am disappointed with what I find out, also, it is none of my business.

GR's life is well documented, and I've read through this thread and others.

I love Star Trek, I don't love GR. I don't think there's a problem with that.
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Old May 4 2013, 06:31 PM   #112
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Re: The Roddenberry Reputation

BillJ wrote: View Post
I'm curious as well. Because I've never complained about Trek being "too preachy".
Agreed. I think there has been discussion as to the differences in POV between TOS era introspective preachiness and TNG's finger-pointing, but all-in-all it is one of Treks endearing features. It is what focuses us on becoming better people which in turn leads us to becoming a better society. It has to be dreamed before it can become reality.

And peoples attitudes regarding Gene Roddenberry the man and Star Trek's preachiness are two completely separate issues whereby the former could be judged negatively and the latter viewed positively without those two opinions conflicting.
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Old May 4 2013, 06:42 PM   #113
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Re: The Roddenberry Reputation

Maurice wrote: View Post
I'm going to get blasted for this but The Cage is overrated. The cast is almost uniformly bland and uncharismatic. The script is only okay. The money is on the screen, and the Talosians are cool, but it's nowhere near Star Trek's finest hour. WNMHGB is a much more dramatic story with far superior casting.
Agree. "The Cage" is flat, both in terms of color and story. It works better as the filler in "The Menagerie," but as a standalone it is no more cerebral than any other science fiction show of the era, such as THE TWILIGHT ZONE and THE OUTER LIMITS. In fact, the Adam and Eve trope is handled much better in many episodes of the former.

The cast doesn't stand out. Pike isn't really a dynamic character, due really to Hunter's rather stoic performance. Bruce Greenwood is far more charismatic in the role. Other than Nimoy, no one in the cast really stands out. While the character of Number One has potential, the actress doesn't.

"Where No Man ... " is a much more engaging story with a great character dilemma for Kirk. More than that, it has wonderful conflict that comes from opposing worldviews — Kirk's and Spock's. Wish there had been more of that antagonism in the actual series. (And is something I'm glad the Abrams' movies have picked up on.)
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Old May 4 2013, 06:59 PM   #114
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Re: The Roddenberry Reputation

middyseafort wrote: View Post
Maurice wrote: View Post
I'm going to get blasted for this but The Cage is overrated. The cast is almost uniformly bland and uncharismatic. The script is only okay. The money is on the screen, and the Talosians are cool, but it's nowhere near Star Trek's finest hour. WNMHGB is a much more dramatic story with far superior casting.
Agree. "The Cage" is flat, both in terms of color and story. It works better as the filler in "The Menagerie," but as a standalone it is no more cerebral than any other science fiction show of the era, such as THE TWILIGHT ZONE and THE OUTER LIMITS. In fact, the Adam and Eve trope is handled much better in many episodes of the former.
I like The Cage, but I think the analysis of the acting is spot on. I doubt we'd still be talking about Hunter, Hoyt and Barrett fifty years later.
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Old May 4 2013, 07:00 PM   #115
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Re: The Roddenberry Reputation

Danger Ace wrote: View Post
BillJ wrote: View Post
I'm curious as well. Because I've never complained about Trek being "too preachy".
Agreed. I think there has been discussion as to the differences in POV between TOS era introspective preachiness and TNG's finger-pointing, but all-in-all it is one of Treks endearing features. It is what focuses us on becoming better people which in turn leads us to becoming a better society. It has to be dreamed before it can become reality.

And peoples attitudes regarding Gene Roddenberry the man and Star Trek's preachiness are two completely separate issues whereby the former could be judged negatively and the latter viewed positively without those two opinions conflicting.
I think the thing about TNG is that they started buying the hype that they were somehow socially important and it made for a show that wasn't as fun as TOS.
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Old May 4 2013, 08:12 PM   #116
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Re: The Roddenberry Reputation

BillJ wrote: View Post
Danger Ace wrote: View Post
BillJ wrote: View Post
I'm curious as well. Because I've never complained about Trek being "too preachy".
Agreed. I think there has been discussion as to the differences in POV between TOS era introspective preachiness and TNG's finger-pointing, but all-in-all it is one of Treks endearing features. It is what focuses us on becoming better people which in turn leads us to becoming a better society. It has to be dreamed before it can become reality.

And peoples attitudes regarding Gene Roddenberry the man and Star Trek's preachiness are two completely separate issues whereby the former could be judged negatively and the latter viewed positively without those two opinions conflicting.
I think the thing about TNG is that they started buying the hype that they were somehow socially important and it made for a show that wasn't as fun as TOS.
I think part of it is that when Kirk does it, you feel it comes from the heart. With Picard, it's like being lectured to by the Headmaster.
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Old May 4 2013, 08:43 PM   #117
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Re: The Roddenberry Reputation

middyseafort wrote: View Post
"Where No Man ... " is a much more engaging story with a great character dilemma for Kirk. More than that, it has wonderful conflict that comes from opposing worldviews — Kirk's and Spock's. Wish there had been more of that antagonism in the actual series. (And is something I'm glad the Abrams' movies have picked up on.)
I love the segment that opens with Spock's line about "white mice". It's a great Star Trek moment.
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Old May 4 2013, 10:45 PM   #118
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Re: The Roddenberry Reputation

Noname Given wrote: View Post
The "two pilots was unheard of at the time..." has always been GR BS. BOTH "Gilligan's Island" and "Lost In Space" got second pilot attempts before they finally aired.
Incorrect examples. Sherwood Schwartz kept resubmitting the Gilligan's Island pilot, and after drastically re-editing it, CBS finally picked it up. Bits of the pilot were cut into the first regular series episode, and the pilot's plot was recycled as the 1st season Christmas episode. Lost in Space has a single pilot, but changes were made for series production (addition of the Robot, Dr. Smith, etc.) and the pilot was chopped up and bits incorporated into various early episodes.

Neither is the same as shooting two wholly different pilots.
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Old May 4 2013, 11:11 PM   #119
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Re: The Roddenberry Reputation

Nerys Myk wrote: View Post
I think part of it is that when Kirk does it, you feel it comes from the heart. With Picard, it's like being lectured to by the Headmaster.

Very well said.
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Old May 5 2013, 12:42 AM   #120
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Re: The Roddenberry Reputation

Marsden wrote: View Post
Nerys Myk wrote: View Post
I think part of it is that when Kirk does it, you feel it comes from the heart. With Picard, it's like being lectured to by the Headmaster.

Very well said.
My issue has always been that Picard seems very Captain-as-King in 'tude, which is very retro and not enlightened 24thcentury at all. Whereas Kirk is not afraid of showing his emotions a lot of the time, so while he has his great quiet powerful moments (Balance of Terror, CHARLIE X), most remember stuff like RISK IS OUR BUSINESS from RtT or, more painfully, SHE'S HUMAN! from requiem.)

Kirk and Sisko (and Janeway even when I was able to watch VOYAGER) seemed military commander-like, whereas Picard vacillated between King and diplomat. The others could incorporate those aspects while still seeming to be in the service, but Picard ... well, suffice to say I'm not a fan.

Q WHO and TAPESTRY and the end of ALL GOOD THINGS show promise at what COULD have been with Picard, but I have always seen him as a missed opportunity. (also kind of wished they HAD let Q serve as their Exec for awhile, because 1st season Riker was such a damned tourist!)
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